The Circumcision Discussion - page 76

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. Visit  choosier2003 profile page
    1
    As a man, I have to say, thank goodness mom had this done as a baby. Makes life so much easier. Got enough worries in life, I sure dont want to have to worry about the increased chance of penile cancer or having to worry about "exra hygiene" measures, or getting it done when I am old enough to remember, ouch!! Cant speak for anyone else, or give advice on the subject, but if your reading, again, "Thanx mom".
    lamazeteacher likes this.
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  3. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    1
    Quote from choosier2003
    As a man, I have to say, thank goodness mom had this done as a baby. Makes life so much easier. Got enough worries in life, I sure dont want to have to worry about the increased chance of penile cancer or having to worry about "exra hygiene" measures, or getting it done when I am old enough to remember, ouch!! Cant speak for anyone else, or give advice on the subject, but if your reading, again, "Thanx mom".

    You could be one of my two adult sons.

    When I tell them of the arguments between their dad and myself - they are glad dad won and say I'm a woman and should have no say in the matter.

    Of course I realize this is mostly because they would stand out and be ridiculed since most boys are circ'd in this part of the country. There was only one boy at their school - that they know of anyway - who was not circ'd and he got teased a lot.

    This is not a reason to circ though - and I'm against it. Just wanted to comment on your post - since you sound like my kids. (and both my ex-husband and my husband now).

    steph
    lamazeteacher likes this.
  4. Visit  Elvish profile page
    0
    Quote from choosier2003
    As a man, I have to say, thank goodness mom had this done as a baby. Makes life so much easier. Got enough worries in life, I sure dont want to have to worry about the increased chance of penile cancer or having to worry about "exra hygiene" measures, or getting it done when I am old enough to remember, ouch!! Cant speak for anyone else, or give advice on the subject, but if your reading, again, "Thanx mom".
    Your risk of getting penile cancer was extremely low to begin with.
    And really, the 'extra hygiene' takes about 2 seconds per day. Not a huge deal.
    Neither my 36yo husband (nor any of his brothers), nor my 4yo son have any issues w/ their intact penises.
    My 4yo has been washing his own penis since he was about 2 1/2.
    I'm glad you're happy the way you are.
  5. Visit  lamazeteacher profile page
    1
    Here are a few quotes from Firstyearstudent's post, about which I'd like to comment:
    1.".....people who think circ with anesthetic is a-okay but think circ without is an evil. The baby will get over the pain and probably even any trauma caused by the experience.

    2."The circumcision, however, is permanent. If I had to make a theoretical choice to have my son undergo the pain of a unanesthtetized circumcision and get to magically keep his foreskin, or have his foreskin magically disappear without any pain or even his knowledge, I'd pick the former!"

    3.".....if I was a man, I don't think I would have wanted my parents to circumcise me. I'd rather make up my own mind about it based on facts and my own....."

    4.".......think I would have wanted my parents to circumcise me. I'd rather make up my own mind about it based on facts and my own preferences, not theirs. Circ can be performed at any time in a person's life........"

    5.".....men seem to enjoy sex as much as uncircumcized men, I suppose...."

    4."........removing it can be painless and provide a small medical benefit or a cultural benefit, so why not do it on a baby......"
    __________________________________________________ _________________
    I want to preface my comments with the wish that no one take the viewpoint that I'm diss'g the poster. It's the view/opinion that irks me (not to a considerably angry amount). Also, it seems to me that student nurses need to look at how they arrive at their opinions and whether that is an accurate way to look at reasons for their decisions.

    In #1 quote, it is assumed that those in favor of circs explain that by thinking that pain is fleeting, memory of trauma can be lost, and anaesthesia makes anything a-okay. WOW! The saying that one should "walk a mile in {another's} shoes......" to know what they think/experience, and parental decisions/options are colored by the presence of pain. If that was true, splinters and or ticks might stay under kids' skin forever, rather than being pulled out, and they'd "never forgive" their parents for deciding to have anything done for them that caused pain or didn't (would that mean that bulging kiddie eardrums would be left alone, to burst - usually in the middle of the night?) I am in favor of using EMLA patches an hour before blood draws on children!

    #2. I hope you meant the "latter". Incidently a pathologist once gifted me with a foreskin enclosed in acrylic (no idea whose it was), like a coin, when he found out that I'm Jewish (sigh/sob). That would be one way of keeping it as a momento.

    #3 &4. It really is impossible to "second" guess anyone else's feelings/opinion correctly. That is why it's so important that we, as nurses never give our own sense of what we'd feel if we were in their situation. We're not, and it interferes with another person's ability to process their own experience, if we do that! Their experience is theirs, not ours and we can't ethically make a guess that could divert them from their own feelings.

    #5. A middle aged man I knew (yes, carnally) who was uncircumcised let me know that he was sure that his arousal was quicker and sensation much more heightened than those men who'd been circ'd could possibly have. Interestingly, circ'd guys have never said anything about having less sensation than anyone else. Again, "walking in someone else's shoes" is inherently impossible. I sure didn't notice anything very different about my reaction or theirs, to the sex.

    #5. If medical decisions are made on a "why not" basis, there is a strong possibility that they're wrong. The exception may be when appendectomy is done with other unrelated surgery, or my personal bias regarding prophylactic mastectomies and oophorectomies. Luckily I don't make or counsel anyone to have those. I do have to "bite my tongue", when attending a patient recovering from a mastectomy, about my opinion that prophylactic mastectmy of the other breast and bilat. oophorectomies are more curative. I made the latter decision after mine, and feel much safer - but at the time I had the surgeries (1978 & 1986), lumpectomies with radiation and or chemo wasn't an option.

    Again, the above comments are being made in the spirit of sharing based on evidence, experience, and a keen desire to teach.
    firstyearstudent likes this.
  6. Visit  lamazeteacher profile page
    0
    Quote from Elvish
    Your risk of getting penile cancer was extremely low to begin with.
    And really, the 'extra hygiene' takes about 2 seconds per day. Not a huge deal.
    Neither my 36yo husband (nor any of his brothers), nor my 4yo son have any issues w/ their intact penises.
    My 4yo has been washing his own penis since he was about 2 1/2.
    I'm glad you're happy the way you are.
    Just a quick quote (from pediatricians) about retracting foreskins to cleanse the accumulated smegma from under them. NOT for 2 1/2 year olds! I recall that 8-10 years of age is when physical trauma isn't an issue when retracting the foreskin (yet another issue in the argument for circs).
  7. Visit  Elvish profile page
    0
    Quote from lamazeteacher
    Just a quick quote (from pediatricians) about retracting foreskins to cleanse the accumulated smegma from under them. NOT for 2 1/2 year olds! I recall that 8-10 years of age is when physical trauma isn't an issue when retracting the foreskin (yet another issue in the argument for circs).
    Lamaze - his foreskin retracted on its own when he was about 10 months old. We have no choice but to wash. We knew better than to force it (remember, my husband is not circumcised and has been caring for a foreskin x 36 years now) but getting a 2yo boy to stop playing with it in the tub ("On...off. On....off.") is like asking him to stop breathing. Ain't gonna happen. He has so far not suffered any trauma.

    I would really not use this as an argument for circumcision. The foreskin separates when it is ready, whether at 10 months or 10 years, or even 15 years. You can't make a flower bloom sooner than it will, and ditto for a foreskin.
  8. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    2
    Quote from Elvish
    Lamaze - his foreskin retracted on its own when he was about 10 months old. We have no choice but to wash. We knew better than to force it (remember, my husband is not circumcised and has been caring for a foreskin x 36 years now) but getting a 2yo boy to stop playing with it in the tub ("On...off. On....off.") is like asking him to stop breathing. Ain't gonna happen. He has so far not suffered any trauma.

    I would really not use this as an argument for circumcision. The foreskin separates when it is ready, whether at 10 months or 10 years, or even 15 years. You can't make a flower bloom sooner than it will, and ditto for a foreskin.

    BTW - They play with their penis in the bathtub whether they have a foreskin or not - :spin:


    steph
    tvccrn and lamazeteacher like this.
  9. Visit  Elvish profile page
    0
    Quote from Spidey's mom
    BTW - They play with their penis in the bathtub whether they have a foreskin or not - :spin:
    No doubt about that!! Heck, they play with it when they're sick, well, hot, cold, circed, intact, whatever! I was just responding to the post that said my 2.5yo should not be retracting it and causing trauma.
  10. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    0
    Quote from Elvish
    No doubt about that!! Heck, they play with it when they're sick, well, hot, cold, circed, intact, whatever! I was just responding to the post that said my 2.5yo should not be retracting it and causing trauma.

    I know - it is just funny . . .how soon they find their penis.


    steph
  11. Visit  Elvish profile page
    0
    I tell my new moms & dads at the hospital to give them about 6months, and it may not even take that long!!
  12. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    1
    Quote from Elvish
    I tell my new moms & dads at the hospital to give them about 6months, and it may not even take that long!!
    That was true with all my sons.

    steph
    Elvish likes this.
  13. Visit  firstyearstudent profile page
    3
    I want to preface my comments with the wish that no one take the viewpoint that I'm diss'g the poster. It's the view/opinion that irks me (not to a considerably angry amount). Also, it seems to me that student nurses need to look at how they arrive at their opinions and whether that is an accurate way to look at reasons for their decisions.

    I really don't see what being a student nurse or anything about my background has to do with having an opinion about circumcision. My arguments and opinions should stand on their own (which I believe they do). A long time ago I stopped giving special credence to experts and professionals just because they call themselves an authority on a particular topic. Dr. Freedman used to give people lobotomies with an ice pick.

    I'm no longer a student nurse. I've been a nurse for two years now. It's a second career for me. I'm 44 and have two sons. I have an academic background in philosophy and worked for over 10 years as a reporter prior to becoming a mom and then a nurse. My husband is Jewish and initially wanted to circumcise so we researched circumcision for well over six months, from every conceivable angle, before arriving at our decision not to circumcise our sons, despite my husband wanting them to identify as Jews.

    I don't think my arguments are that outlandish or bizarre. I think the act of circumcision itself, the removal of a healthy part of an infant's body, without their consent, is actually a worse injury to them than the pain of circumcision because it is permanent. If someone said to me, you must make a choice, endure pain comparable to having your finger cut off without having your finger cut off, or have your finger magically removed without pain. Well, I'd keep the finger. My point is simply that people get so wrapped up in the pain issue, where circumcision is concerned, that they forget that the real issue is the permanent remove of part of a healthy body.

    As far as walking in another person's shoes, I really can't. None of us can. Especially an infant since I know absolutely nothing about their viewpoints and preferences, because they don't have any. (Unlike say, an advanced directive.) The best I can do what I think is best for them based on my own experiences and trying to be as objective as I can and give them as much freedom as is feasible and responsible to make their own decisions. This means that I should err on the side of caution. If I was a man who was happy to be circumcised and believed that circumcision had been the best choice for me, I would hope that I still wouldn't circumcise my child because I have no idea what they would want. That would be like pre-paying my infant son's tuition at my alma mater and then insisting he go simply because it's a good school and I liked it.

    We all make decisions for our children all the time, naturally, but during my research I just could not find convincing evidence that it was of a significant benefit to him. Mostly it just seemed like a perference and I didn't feel comfortable imposing my preference on my son. If he wants to get a circumcision once he is of an age to make that decision for himself, I would totally support him (hell, I'll even pay for it!).

    And I would remove a tick from my child because a tick doesn't belong there, unlike his foreskin, which does belong there. If you believe that the male foreskin is like a tick, well, then, I guess you should remove it, but I think you're off-base there...
    Last edit by firstyearstudent on Feb 24, '09
    JanisM, Smurfette752, and Elvish like this.
  14. Visit  JanisM profile page
    1
    This comment gave me a laugh. I remember having an ultrasound for my 2nd son (now 18 yrs old) and asking what sex he was. I was told they couldn't tell because his hands were covering his genitals. I guess it does start early!
    Spidey's mom likes this.


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