partial birth abortion - page 8

THE OUTCOME of what is almost certain to be a legal battle fought all the way to Supreme Court will hinge on whether the justices accept the findings of Congress that the procedure is never medically... Read More

  1. by   SuesquatchRN
    Quote from motorcycle mama
    Oh now, nobody's brains are shooting anywhere.
    I dunno. My synapses are firing. Yours?
  2. by   fergus51
    Quote from motorcycle mama
    Maybe I'm just special (sarcasm here) but YES I HAVE MADE IT KNOWN TO GOD AND EVERYONE THAT I WILL PERISH BEFORE MY FETUS (ergo baby) WILL. And that is not some half-baked fantasy.

    I WILL DIE, IF NECESSARY, aortic aneurism or no. Maybe that sounds crazy to you but God as my witness I would go, and don't be so self-assured that I would cower and repent and change my mind because I have been in a life and death situation before (no it wasn't pregnancy related) and when you are in this situation it is funny but something changes and you really feel quite comfortable with the idea you are fading out.

    It's easy to assume everyone thinks life is worth clinging to at all costs when you've never stood on the edge of the abyss yourself.

    Syringe or scissors it's a wretched practice, and it is too easy to use what appears to others to be the obvious when making an argument for such an objectionable procedure when I would bet those arguing for the mother's life are as comfortable with the idea of this procedure as if it is a matter of convenience. And just because some people feel that repeating information somehow gives their argument/experience more legitimacy and makes it more "right" doesn't make it so. There is no excuse.

    Think I'll stick with taking care of the old folks.
    I'm not saying you would change your mind, just that it's easy to say you never would do something when you aren't facing the very real possibility of a completely preventable death. Dying along with your fetus and leaving the rest of your family to mourn you might be something you'd do. It might not. Neither decision makes a woman a monster. If a woman chooses to live and stay with her husband and other children, she's making a moral decision too. Personally I think a preventable death is no different than suicide and I have strong feelings on that topic because of my life experiences, but I don't think people are immoral if they feel differently.

    BTW, I don't believe in this procedure as a matter of convenience. I can't believe it would ever be used in that way simply because there is nothing about it that could be described as convenient. If you knew about the different procedures, you'd see why. For convenience, it would be a D&E. A D&X is harder to do and it's harder to find a provider who does them. The only reason a woman would choose a D&X over a D&E is if she wants an intact body to mourn over at the end of it. Women who want to get rid of a fetus for convenience alone wouldn't want that.

    I don't know why you'd bet on how I feel about something when you could just ask me and get the answer from the horse's mouth.
    Last edit by fergus51 on Aug 29, '07
  3. by   fergus51
    Quote from Suesquatch
    I dunno. My synapses are firing.
    I don't get emotionally involved in these topics anymore. I will correct misinformation about the procedure itself and why its chosen. Beyond that I don't care that someone who doesn't work with the type of patients I have in high risk OB has judgements about the procedure and the people who do them. They have a right to their opinions. I have a right to mine.
  4. by   Jo Dirt
    Quote from fergus51
    I don't get emotionally involved in these topics anymore. I will correct misinformation about the procedure itself and why its chosen. Beyond that I don't care that someone who doesn't work with the type of patients I have in high risk OB has judgements about the procedure and the people who do them. They have a right to their opinions. I have a right to mine.

    No, there is no reason to start fuming, and I know there is misinformation no matter where you go, and while I am not so so arrogant as to think I have all the answers on this subject I believe I have enough knowledge to decide where I stand on it and why. I know people die from childbirth and there are times it could be prevented and there are people who choose to let the baby perish...no, I don't believe they are monsters and I hope to God I'm never in their position, but I know what I will do if I ever am. In fact, before I went to the hospital this last time to have the baby, I told my husband if I become incapacitated and he had to make the decisions, if they told him it was me or the baby he knew which choice to make and don't feel guilty about it.
    Got no argument from the old man. After all, I've got enough life insurance for them to live on the interest.

    Anyway...

    Like I said, I believe in freedom of choice but I still don't have to agree with it. And I still say there is no such thing as a medically necessary PBA.
  5. by   KellNY
    Quote from motorcycle mama
    Like I said, I believe in freedom of choice but I still don't have to agree with it. And I still say there is no such thing as a medically necessary PBA.
    Technically you're right. Just like there's no such thing as a medically necessary appendectomy (we could just let it rupture and treat with abx and pain meds without surgical intervention) or a medically necessary CABG (we could treat with meds and provide end of life care when the time comes) or a medically necessary c-section (we could let nature take it's course so to speak, or hope for the best despite the risks God or the Universe will take care of everything.

    Those procedures, while not medically necessary, sure are medically indicated or are necessary in order to preserve the life or health of the patient (as is a D&X at times, again, when the baby is often incompatable with life).

    In reality, nothing is simply "NECESSARY" (not even breathing). Sure we run the risk of dying if it's not done, or suffering very poor effects. But we're each left a choice.

    So I agree with you, motorcyclemama. (especially about it being a choice that you yourself wouldn't have to make. I hope again that none of us ever have to make that choice. I wish no woman or man would ever have to make that choice)

    Now....

    Had you said that there were no such thing as a medically INDICATED or beneficial D&X then I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. And since you think I'm just repeating myself over and over, I'll just refer you to my previous posts.
  6. by   fergus51
    Maybe it's strange, but I'd have more problems looking after a mother choosing to die rather than intervene than I would a mother choosing to induce birth when it was medically indicated.

    We had one woman with horrible PIH refusing a c-section or induction because the baby was pre-viability (on my old unit). It was really hard for everyone involved. If it had been her choosing to die so her baby could live, I would have understood that. But in this case it looked like it was either going to be her surviving alone or them both dying. That baby was going to die regardless of her choice, the only question was if she was going to go with it. It was horrible.
  7. by   SuesquatchRN
    Quote from fergus51
    I don't get emotionally involved in these topics anymore. I will correct misinformation about the procedure itself and why its chosen. Beyond that I don't care that someone who doesn't work with the type of patients I have in high risk OB has judgements about the procedure and the people who do them. They have a right to their opinions. I have a right to mine.
    I certainly don't get as incensed as I once did, but while others have the right to their opinions, I have a real problem when they vote those opinions based on emotion rather than knowledge and we end up with a SCOTUS decision permitting the states to make medically indicated (thanks, Kell) procedures illegal even for the health of the mother.
  8. by   mugwump
    OK just to add some thought for the fire. Granted this isn't about partial birth abotion. I don't belive there is a place for it. I belive there are enough alternatives that this shouldn't be used maybe there is an extreme case where this would be appropriate but those would be few and far between, but here is the food for though with all the pro-lifers (just to make things clear, I am pro life for me and pro choice for everyone else.) I have a one year old and when I first found out i was pregnant she didn't show up on ultrasound for 6 weeks. They thought she might be an ectopic. The doctor said if this was an unwanted pregnancy I would not be against giving you a medication incase it was an ectopic (I chose to wait until she declared her location one way or another. Obviously she was in the right place
    anyway. For all of these prolifers who would rather die than have an abortion or a baby who won't survive. (extremly preterm delivery) what do you think happens when you die. You take the baby with you. you essentially kill your baby and any future babies by not seeking the proper medical care that may or may not save you and your child. Just wondering what the thoughts were on that.
  9. by   HeartsOpenWide
    It they consider a baby "viable" at 28 weeks, and the mother needs a partial birth abortion because she will die if the baby stays in; why not just deliver the baby and do what they do for all other 28 weekers; or just let nature take its course once it is out? I find it strange that some can not consider this murder; when Mr. Peterson got two counts of murder, one for his wife and one for his unborn baby.
  10. by   fergus51
    Quote from HeartsOpenWide
    It they consider a baby "viable" at 28 weeks, and the mother needs a partial birth abortion because she will die if the baby stays in; why not just deliver the baby and do what they do for all other 28 weekers; or just let nature take its course once it is out? I find it strange that some can not consider this murder; when Mr. Peterson got two counts of murder, one for his wife and one for his unborn baby.
    If it was a normal baby at 28 weeks, they would likely do a c-section or induction and all measures would be taken to save the baby. Viability is more like 23-24 weeks, sometimes as low as 22. There would be no reason for a D&X at that point unless the fetus were severely deformed (severe hydrocephalus). That's why this procedure is so rare (it is RARELY necessary).
  11. by   33-weeker
    Quote from KaroSnowQueen
    This is the nastiest procedure I have ever heard of and cannot imagine any circumstance where it would be necessary. How horrible and unnatural for people to even think this is a procedure that anybody would want to do. I just cannot imagine the people who think up things like this and how can they participate in such a procedure either as the mother or physician.
    :yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat: :yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat: :yeahthat:

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