Maybe a stupid question..

SpankedInPittsburgh, DNP, RN · Mar 19, 2018

PSU made an excellent point. We really don't know the exact particulars of why this nurse got fired.

brownbook · Mar 19, 2018

My mother-in-law was a wonderful hugging caring person. Fortunately my husband takes after her. He is a hugger of men and women. Well....of course he should probably be jailed for at least 6 months, get probation, and attend therapy groups for a year!

I don't mean to hijack a thread but it annoys me the publicity Me Too keeps getting, yet 17 student and adults killed while in school is "just a political" issue and not even making the news every day.

chare · Mar 19, 2018

My mother-in-law was a wonderful hugging caring person. Fortunately my husband takes after her. He is a hugger of men and women. Well....of course he should probably be jailed for at least 6 months, get probation, and attend therapy groups for a year!
[...]

Where exactly did you get this out of anything posted here? Some, myself included, have suggested that this likely wasn't the best method for him to try and fit in. Some, myself included, have also suggested that if this indeed go on for months without anyone saying anything to him, that that was unjust as well.

[...]
I don't mean to hijack a thread but it annoys me the publicity Me Too keeps getting, yet 17 student and adults killed while in school is "just a political" issue and not even making the news every day.

I'm not sure where you are, but in my area it is still news. Even our local conservative talk radio station aired an anti-gun response from a local high school student during the news coverage, as well as news coverage of the upcoming march being planned for late next week I believe.

maxthecat · Mar 19, 2018

He probably should have known better.

But there is also a responsibility for the "touchee" to speak up if he or she is uncomfortable. If they don't then the "toucher" is going to assume they're OK with it.

I do not like being touched, even when I know the person touching me has the best intentions in the world. If you ask "may I touch you" I will almost certainly say, "thanks, but please don't." And it should end there. If no one told this guy he was out of bounds, then I don't think it's totally his fault.

SpankedInPittsburgh, DNP, RN · Mar 19, 2018

Yeah if he was doing something that offended somebody then he should have been told directly. From what I've seen nurses don't do this. They talk ceaselessly behind each others back forever and turn what could have been a small problem easily addressed into a catastrophe. Of course with each telling of the tale the sins become more pronounced so if this went on for months I have little doubt that he is being talked about like a convicted sex offender behind his back while the same nurses are smiling to his face

ThePsychWhisperer, BSN, MSN, APRN, NP · Mar 19, 2018

My mother-in-law was a wonderful hugging caring person. Fortunately my husband takes after her. He is a hugger of men and women. Well....of course he should probably be jailed for at least 6 months, get probation, and attend therapy groups for a year!
I don't mean to hijack a thread but it annoys me the publicity Me Too keeps getting, yet 17 student and adults killed while in school is "just a political" issue and not even making the news every day.

I couldn't agree more. I don't completely disagree with the #MeToo movement, but I'm not the world's biggest fan, either. I mean, the behavior was apparently acceptable while careers were being advanced, but when the "victims" involved were where they needed to be professionally, all of a sudden this behavior was unacceptable. Yet, when there are school shootings everywhere with multiple children dying, it's on the news for maybe two days, then *poof,* all the while females everywhere, some that have never even experienced this harassment, are getting #MeToo tattoos. It infuriates me, truly.

*Gets off soapbox*

While I agree that we don't have all the details, if these nurses were truly offended by the touching, they should have spoken up and simply told him the touching made them uncomfortable instead of apparently conspiring together and all going to management en masse. Personally, I had many guys in my old ER touch my back or give quick shoulder rubs (and there were inappropriate jokes galore), and I never felt violated or offended. Now, had there been goodie grabbing or inappropriate propositioning going on, it would have been a totally different story. Maybe my triggered threshold is a bit higher than most today, but I feel like women (and people in general) are far too easily offended and threatened these days - and this is from a sexual assault victim.

Neats, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

You communicate your not really sure what happened.

Policies in the work place are there for a reason. Adherence to a standard can be perceived as "hard" or inflexible at time. It remains unclear if anyone ever brought up the subject if it made them uncomfortable to be on the receiving end or observation end of this employee but this type of Harassment but I can tell you as a prior manager I would have told this employee to stop even if no one ever said anything because what he was doing was creating an environment that could interfere with operations, work performance, that it is unclear if this "touching was implicit or explicit based on some sort of understanding. I guess my point is when I am walking by or for that matter the vending machine company rep coming in and witnessing this, then reports to me what they saw, again I would speak to the person to stop and if they did not then they would be terminated.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

A male co worker was suspended possibly fired (we do not have all of the details) over sexual harassment. This was after complaints of many female co workers. Their complaints were he touched their arms or backs (above the waist) or offered massages. I don't think he meant any of this is a sexual nature I think he's just a touchy guy. No one ever said this makes me uncomfortable please stop. Instead they let it go on for months and finally decided to go to the manager. This guy wasn't a good nurse he was a new grad and still learning and making the effort to learn. I think more than anything he was trying to fit in with his female co workers and just didn't understand you can't just be going around giving back massages. We have a zero tolerance policy so we are speculating he has more than likely been fired. If no one told him this makes them uncomfortable and he wasn't making sexual advances along with these and not groping or saying offensive things along with this, is this fair? I just feel terrible for a guy who's career is potentially ruined who I don't think meant anything wrong just has a lack of professional boundaries and saw other people doing it and followed suite. Not that following suite when you are sexually harassing someone makes it ok, but since it wasn't out and out sexual harassment just touching backs and offering massages and not being told to stop and probably being terminated over which I think is just a reason to get rid of him. Thoughts on this? I'm probably not explaining good I've worked all night and am kinda tired and I'm not defending sexual harassment in any form, but I think this was just stupidity or naievity lack of experience in the professional world etc.

There's a reason women are too intimidated to tell someone to stop massaging their backs, etc. It has to do with the rape culture and the patriarchal society and all of that which has been discussed incessantly in the past six months. A women may HATE to be touched, but because of societal conditioning or past experiences, she knows she won't be taken seriously if she tries to put a stop to it. In some environments, she may be hesitant to say anything because it could be detrimental to her career. We get quite adept at telling ourselves "It's no big deal" or "He doesn't mean anything by it" when, in truth, it IS a big deal and he DOES mean something by it. The fact that the guy was a new orientee means he probably did not have enough power in the workplace to make things difficult for a woman who told him "no", but again, that might not be the case.

I'm not sure how you KNOW that "no one ever told him this makes me uncomfortable or told him to stop." Unless you were present every. single. time. If you weren't, you honestly don't know what exactly transpired. Even if you were present every single time, someone may have said nothing in the nurse's station (to avoid creating a scene) and then taken him aside later in private and said "It makes me uncomfortable when you touch me. Please don't do it again."

People may have been telling him over and over for months that they weren't comfortable with what he was doing and he didn't "get it." Or he did get it and didn't care. Or he didn't think it was a big deal even if they did. Or something. The fact that other guys do it and it's OK isn't relevant. There may be something about the relationships these other guys have developed with some of their colleagues that makes it OK while having some random newbie sneak up behind you to massage your shoulders is NOT OK.

Maybe he wasn't groping them -- but maybe he was and you missed it. Maybe he was taking the opportunity to look down their shirts. Maybe he triggered someone's PTSD left over from that time she was raped. Or groped on the subway. Or sexually assaulted by a "friend" at the Christmas party or whatever. Neck massages, shoulder and back massages are pretty well-known grooming behaviors that harassers employ when they've marked someone they're interested in. He may have been engaging in grooming, or he may have triggered someone who had been groomed in the past. Maybe the women involved were giving clear signals to back off, and perhaps they were too intimidated to do so.

I think it's completely fair to suspend or terminate a male employee who is making his female colleagues uncomfortable with unwanted touching. Especially in this post-Weinstein climate. He shouldn't have been touching his colleagues without invitation. Period. Ever. The only time you touch a colleague without invitation is when the roof is caving in and you're snatching them out of danger. Or if they're your best friend and you KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt that touching is OK. Or, that time when our colleague died in the OR and we were all standing in the nurse's station hugging and crying and waiting to find out the result of the code we all knew was going on because the surgical fellow came to our unit to get the ECMO.

What your now-former colleague did was stupid. Maybe he had no idea that he was making people uncomfortable. That doesn't speak well for his ability to pick up on social cues, and one might wonder about his interactions with female patients or with female family members of patients. I think your outrage on his behalf is misplaced.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

Rightfully, the fact that it was already established as something that apparently did not create a "hostile work environment" when other people did it should come into play here.
If "me and my friends" like to make frequent sexual jokes in the workplace - isn't it just a little wrong to say the work environment is somehow "hostile" when the only thing that has changed is that someone not in our cool kids club tries to join in?

I don't think it has been established that it was "OK" when other people did it. But even if it WAS OK for others -- there's a big difference between Mike, whom I've known for years and whose wife is a close friend rubs my shoulders and someone I've just met and who gives me a bit of an "off" vibe starts rubbing me. If you want to call it "cool kids club", OK. But when someone I don't know well jumps in with un-asked-for and unwanted touching, it IS a hostile work environment.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

Yeah,
I'm a guy in a female dominated profession & know that I have to be aware of that reality. There is no way I'm offering massages for a litany of reasons. First and foremost I have no desire at all to do this but I do think this is unprofessional conduct. We need better boundaries in nursing where we treat colleagues appropriately and not as our buddies or part of an extended family. This mistake bit him in the butt. A male nurse should never put himself in the position of being accused of sexual harassment at work. Having said that I think somebody should have talked to this guy so the situation didn't drag on and get to the point where this nurse is in serious trouble without ever having the ability to modify his behaviors.

And we don't know that someone DIDN'T talk to him about it. The OP says no one did, but unless the OP is this guy, the OP has no way of knowing what someone did or didn't talk to him about.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

Just reading this made me cringe. I know the type well, although I've only encountered "them" three times in my entire life. I guarantee you this has been brought to his attention before and he didn't get it. They never do. Hopefully he'll learn something from getting fired, but he'll probably just feel persecuted for being "himself".

I cannot like this enough. I, too felt the "cringe factor" while reading this.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Mar 19, 2018

He probably should have known better.
But there is also a responsibility for the "touchee" to speak up if he or she is uncomfortable. If they don't then the "toucher" is going to assume they're OK with it.
I do not like being touched, even when I know the person touching me has the best intentions in the world. If you ask "may I touch you" I will almost certainly say, "thanks, but please don't." And it should end there. If no one told this guy he was out of bounds, then I don't think it's totally his fault.

And again, we don't know that no one told this guy he was out of bounds. I'm in agreement with Sour Lemon that he has probably been told multiple times he was out of bounds. And he doesn't get it. Because people "are taking it too seriously" or "shouldn't feel that way" or "don't get that he's just trying to be friendly" or whatever. I've met guys like this, worked with them and even been touched by them. Telling them to back off politely or kindly doesn't make an impression on them. Being called to HR and counseled about sexual harassment may not make an impression on them. Even being fired may not make an impression -- but he won't be touching THERE particular co-workers again.