"Fired for NO Reason"

chelynn · Jan 12, 2010

Just a couple things I want to point out.

All through NS it was pounded in our head to be honest and accountable. That, to me, means take some responsibility, don't blame others.

Pretty much on the first day of NS I decided that alot, not all or a majority, but alot of what is Nursing is Common Sense. we all know at lest one person, anyone not just a nurse, who lacks common sense. They just won't get it no matter how hard they try or we try to explain or help.

Lastly, the person who posted that ASN schools accept anyone, you seem to lack some Common Sense. At my University, not CC or online school, we have a waiting list got the ASN program, have minimum GPA requirements, and also prereqs and not just anyone can be accepted. Find out your facts before you spout off please

allnurses Guide · Jan 12, 2010

I've been pondering this issue alot lately because of a situation at my job with a co-worker- and it's very frustrating. In this case- all I can figure out is that some otherwise intelligent people have several huge blind spots when it comes to their own personalities and behaviors. Because, like Ruby- I did not want this person to lose her job! Common sense tells you that if you hear the same message from several people via verbal and written communication, and you are intelligent enough to get through the rigors of school and pass the N-CLEX, and you are given very specific things you need to do to improve- you do those things- right? You're not surprised and shocked when it all finally falls apart? I don't know- I guess some things have to remain a puzzler.

I would put her in a different category from someone who doesn't get it despite being very sincere in trying and adapting to feedback. I really think that there are people who do have it all going on fine inside. They pass most tests with flying colors and can tell you the steps in a procedure 1-100. It's the pace of the floors and the processing multiple things at once after the adrenaline kicks in that some people can't do, and it isn't anyone's fault. I had a heck of a time at first because I had a head full of "perfect". I thought I was a bad nurse if I gave less attention to one thing because another was more important. It takes longer for us to learn those processing skills. Some people will never be able to work trauma, or even real busy med-surg. In those cases, I hope that new grad is re-directed to something she will excel at without tearing up her self-esteem in the process. :twocents:

talaxandra · Jan 12, 2010

However clearly and carefully it's explained, some people will interpret Ruby's post and those supporting it as yet another form of intolerant established nurses having it in for the young, rather than articulating that some people aren't cut out for ICU nursing, acute care nursing, or possibly nursing full stop.

What Ruby says isn't being seen as an informed, experienced, objective assessment of ability and aptitude but as yet another vindictive senior nurse with an agenda mindlessly eating the young around her.

I can't help be struck by the irony - no doubt Sal felt the same way.

llltapp · Feb 2, 2010

The truth doesn't stop being the truth just because we refuse to look at it

lamazeteacher · Feb 2, 2010

"for instance, if the inr is 9, it might explain the nosebleed, the cherry red urine and the fact that the hemoglobin is now 6. giving the coumadin at 6pm as scheduled is not a good thing, even if you gave it right on time and were able to explain to the patient that "it's a blood thinner." i could go on and on.

but ruby didn't share other specific incidents illustrating sal's knowledge deficit, and it seemed to me that the inr thing was, as she wrote, a "for instance". it certainly didn't say she was actually willing/going to give the coumadin, or that sal had survived 4 different preceptors!! there is also no mention of the time frame within which those preceptors worked with her.

we all know that different nurses have different perspectives on how things need to be seen/done, and each of us prides him/herself on our own, which we developed from noticing that they worked. how confusing it must have been, for a new grad to have 4 different people's take on things; and opinion of her ability to perceive patient needs and provide their care appropriately. i imagine, since ruby wasn't her preceptor, that sal may have seen her as a referee, as you befriended her in the hostile environment in which she found herself.

it would be interesting and clarifying to know how it came to be, that 4 preceptors, all of whom were said to be inappropriate, were assigned with her. in my experience, new grads or anyone else having a preceptor, had their schedule adjusted to match each other's time. if different preceptors were needed, was there a scheduling reason? did a preceptor decide he/she didn't want to work with her, or even be a preceptor? how much time did each preceptor spend with her? what teaching methods were used?

my take on the op was that "didn't" and other opposing words were used to tell this new grad what to do. in my teaching of parenting, i started out by saying that young minds are like computers that don't understand/accept negative commands. when you say, "don't do that", and a young soul wants to do that, they hear only "do that"! now by the time an individual finished his/her schooling, perception has been heightened, and they usually get the actual command. computers and toddlers don't get it.

however learning is almost always enhanced by positive statements. if you say, "coumadin is used only when the inr is low, like .5", (according to your lab's values and methods), that information is more likely to be retained. for example, when you say that a bs is done routinely before one eats, that makes better sense than saying, "don't take the bs after the patient eats". that isn't a good example for a new grad nurse, but i've been teaching patients so long, that's the one that comes to mind......

"the quality of mercy......." is something i found lacking in many nurses, for each other, especially for some reason, in preceptor relationships. some enjoy doing that, others feel it gives them excess work without extra remuneration. most of us would prefer to work with someone who is a "quick study", applying theory to practice easily. the stumbling, bumbling person who "gets it" slower isn't tolerated well by those of us who see the goal of preceptoring as developing skills quickly. anyone else is the subjecty of ridicule.

when i was in my first 3 months of nursing education (it was called "training", then) experienced nurses and interns considered it great sport to send unsuspecting "probies" (probationers) to the lab for fallopian tubes........ i had a hard time with the inconsistency of that kind of thing, thinking that we were all on the same team. although i wasn't one of those who was given that task. i wish i had been, as i would have gotten some actual ones from pathology, if i could have persuaded someone to part with them.:smackingf (it has been said that my sense of humor is off.)

so i guess i am one of those "vindictive seniors", but those i teach have always been off limits for that kind of thing.

heron, ASN, RN · Feb 2, 2010

lamazeteacher ... although i haven't gone back to the original post, i seem to remember that sal's preceptors were changed because of her lack of success with the previous one. they were testing whether the issue was a preceptor problem or a sal problem.

found the info in post #33 on page 4:

i wasn't sal's preceptor, although i did work with her a few times. i precept another new grad from her class. i was in the preceptor meetings when her preceptors vented about their frustration with trying to explain the same things to her over and over and over again, and nothing ever seemed to "click." after two preceptors couldn't help her out, they bowed out and she got two new preceptors who had the exact same issues with her. nice as she was, she just didn't get it. the inr story is a true one (although i don't remember the exact inr (was it 8.8 or 9.2?) or the exact hemoglobin, they were well outside the normal range. after 12 weeks in the icu, and an 8 hour class on hemodynamics, she still didn't understand the swan-ganz -- what it is, where it sits or the kind of information it gives you. she admitted to my orientee that she never studied at home, and my orientee suggested to her that she might want to start doing so.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Feb 2, 2010

"for instance, if the inr is 9, it might explain the nosebleed, the cherry red urine and the fact that the hemoglobin is now 6. giving the coumadin at 6pm as scheduled is not a good thing, even if you gave it right on time and were able to explain to the patient that "it's a blood thinner." i could go on and on.
but ruby didn't share other specific incidents illustrating sal's knowledge deficit, and it seemed to me that the inr thing was, as she wrote, a "for instance". it certainly didn't say she was actually willing/going to give the coumadin, or that sal had survived 4 different preceptors!! there is also no mention of the time frame within which those preceptors worked with her.
we all know that different nurses have different perspectives on how things need to be seen/done, and each of us prides him/herself on our own, which we developed from noticing that they worked. how confusing it must have been, for a new grad to have 4 different people's take on things; and opinion of her ability to perceive patient needs and provide their care appropriately. i imagine, since ruby wasn't her preceptor, that sal may have seen her as a referee, as you befriended her in the hostile environment in which she found herself.
it would be interesting and clarifying to know how it came to be, that 4 preceptors, all of whom were said to be inappropriate, were assigned with her. in my experience, new grads or anyone else having a preceptor, had their schedule adjusted to match each other's time. if different preceptors were needed, was there a scheduling reason? did a preceptor decide he/she didn't want to work with her, or even be a preceptor? how much time did each preceptor spend with her? what teaching methods were used?

sal was given two very knowledgeable preceptors when she first started on our unit. by the end of the first month it became obvious that she just wasn't getting it. the two preceptors, the educator and the manager sat down with her and tried to explain to her what the problems were and how she could fix them. she signed the evaluation and her performance plan, then came to the unit and complained that her preceptors were picking on her for no good reason. there was another meeting in two weeks to look at her progress on her objectives. at that point, she complained that her day shift preceptor, with whom she had spent the most time, was too hard on her and couldn't teach according to her learning style. she was switched to another preceptor at her request and her schedule changed to match that of the new preceptor.

then sal went to night shift for a bit, and the night shift preceptor had essentially the same take on sal's strengths and weaknesses. there was a meeting. sal complained that this preceptor was also being too hard on her. she asked for another change, but this time the manager told her she'd have to suck it up and figure out how to work with the preceptor.

by the three month mark, both of her preceptors had gone to the manager with concerns, urging the manager to terminate sal's employment because not only did she not get it, she thought she was getting it. (someone who knows she doesn't know the work is easier to teach than someone who thinks she does know.) she had also "flunked" both the pharmacy test and the rhythm test in her critical care classes, and needed to retake them before she'd be allowed to take her critical care test. after re-taking the tests, she again failed to get a passing score. one of the preceptors flat out refused to work with her anymore because sal's attitude was that she didn't have a problem, the preceptors had the problem.

sal was switched to another preceptor, this time at the preceptor's request. this was to be her final chance to keep her job. she again had a formal meeting with the manager, the educator and her preceptors. she had a formal, written evaluation listing the concerns and multiple examples of each concern. she was given two more weeks to get it together and pass her written tests. again, sal complained that she was doing great but the preceptors were out to get her.

by the time she was fired, everyone who encountered her at work had some concerns. even the other orientees.

lamazeteacher · Feb 3, 2010

Mea Culpa, I had no idea, and upon looking back at the OP and post #33, nothing was written about the fact that this new grad (how new?) was being precepted in ICU. If she was straight out of nursing school, without much/any bedside experience, if I'd heard of this when I was a nursing administrator, I would have wanted an explanation regarding the appropriateness of putting someone with no M/S experience in that unit at all (unless she was a patient).

Good Lord, what possesses someone to put that babe in the woods? 12 weeks is probably enough time for an experienced nurse to get the hang of that job, but new grads? Heron, maybe your orientee was precocious, studied assiduously, had worked in another capacity on a M/S unit while/before nursing school, talked to the other nurses more, or whatever got him/her up to speed.

However in my opinion, it's abusive to put someone without any experience, in ICU. If this is a modern trend, I'm against it, as it places both nurse and patient in an unsafe position..

You have to learn how to crawl before walking, and how to walk before running (although I've seen toddlers do otherwise). I've been away from M/S so long, I had to look up the INR values, myself. However it's ingrained in my psyche to administer no digitalis, if a patient's pulse is under 60. As soon as the INR value was received on the unit, I would have thought the coumadin should have been dc'd by the nurse manager or unit clerk who received it, (if they're allowed that responsibility). That's a mute point, though as the "for instance" (quoted in my post) wasn't presented as something that had actually happened.

My experience in nursing with ICU nurses has been on the periphery, and those nurses while uniquely well suited for their often hectic work, have developed extensive critical care expertise far above that of regular M/S nurses. Unfortunately, they haven't been above flaunting that. I've made it a point to compliment ICU nurses effusively for their exceptional work.

With one exception which I'll never forget. I was the Infection Control Coordinator at a county hospital, and went to the ICU to discuss a point about Infection Control (use of gloves to start IVs) that had become an issue. During that meeting, which was held at the nurses' station, the head nurse said she had to disconnect an IV right away(?????) As she returned to the station with the sharp needle in her hand, held at waist level (that was before needleless equipment), a pregnant nurse in her last trimester went bustling by, straight into it!!! (I did try to avoid exclamation points before this). :eek:

Luckily the needle didn't penetrate her uterus, so the baby seemed protected. However the patient from whom the IV was taken, who had not stated a "risky" frisky history, was found to be HIVab +......... Needless to say, when I counseled the exposed nurse about the need to use condoms for the next 6 months, she mentioned the "sue" word. :uhoh3:

I mention the above episode, to highlight the fact that no one can be perfect, not even an ICU Head Nurse.......

johnnybravo8802 · Feb 3, 2010

Mea Culpa, I had no idea, and upon looking back at the OP and post #33, nothing was written about the fact that this new grad (how new?) was being precepted in ICU. If she was straight out of nursing school, without much/any bedside experience, if I'd heard of this when I was a nursing administrator, I would have wanted an explanation regarding the appropriateness of putting someone with no M/S experience in that unit at all (unless she was a patient).
Good Lord, what possesses someone to put that babe in the woods? 12 weeks is probably enough time for an experienced nurse to get the hang of that job, but new grads? Heron, maybe your orientee was precocious, studied assiduously, had worked in another capacity on a M/S unit while/before nursing school, talked to the other nurses more, or whatever got him/her up to speed.
However in my opinion, it's abusive to put someone without any experience, in ICU. If this is a modern trend, I'm against it, as it places both nurse and patient in an unsafe position..
You have to learn how to crawl before walking, and how to walk before running (although I've seen toddlers do otherwise). I've been away from M/S so long, I had to look up the INR values, myself. However it's ingrained in my psyche to administer no digitalis, if a patient's pulse is under 60. As soon as the INR value was received on the unit, I would have thought the coumadin should have been dc'd by the nurse manager or unit clerk who received it, (if they're allowed that responsibility). That's a mute point, though as the "for instance" (quoted in my post) wasn't presented as something that had actually happened.
My experience in nursing with ICU nurses has been on the periphery, and those nurses while uniquely well suited for their often hectic work, have developed extensive critical care expertise far above that of regular M/S nurses. Unfortunately, they haven't been above flaunting that. I've made it a point to compliment ICU nurses effusively for their exceptional work.
With one exception which I'll never forget. I was the Infection Control Coordinator at a county hospital, and went to the ICU to discuss a point about Infection Control (use of gloves to start IVs) that had become an issue. During that meeting, which was held at the nurses' station, the head nurse said she had to disconnect an IV right away(?????) As she returned to the station with the sharp needle in her hand, held at waist level (that was before needleless equipment), a pregnant nurse in her last trimester went bustling by, straight into it!!! (I did try to avoid exclamation points before this).
Luckily the needle didn't penetrate her uterus, so the baby seemed protected. However the patient from whom the IV was taken, who had not stated a "risky" frisky history, was found to be HIVab +......... Needless to say, when I counseled the exposed nurse about the need to use condoms for the next 6 months, she mentioned the "sue" word.
I mention the above episode, to highlight the fact that no one can be perfect, not even an ICU Head Nurse.......

You must have worked at only one hospital in your career. I've got news for you, hospitals all over this country are practicing unsafe medicine everyday-It's called, "Needing a warm body." It really erks you when an unqualified nurse ends up right next to you in an ICU. I had to do a lot of time on the floor(Yrs) and go through an extensive ICU class and then 3 months of preceptorship before I was turned loose and that's the way it should be. In later years, I worked at a smaller hospital in the Neuro ICU and ended up with floor nurse working right next to me-I was pissed!!!!!! :mad: :mad: Their logic-The acuity was low and therefore, the floor nurse was probably good enough. On top of that, she was a new nurse!!!!! :down: Not only does it undermine your level of expertise and tromple all over the years you put in the sweat shop to earn that position, it's unsafe for the pt. Oh, and the best part, management doesn't want to listen to you when you tell them how unsafe it is. They want you to be a leader but don't want to hear your opinion-It's all about money!!!

On another note, I have met a lot of crappy preceptor's who couldn't teach ****!!!! Just because you're really good at what you do, doesn't mean you can teach. I have also seen a lot of nurses sit on their *** and let the preceptee do all the work-the whole time trying to convince everyone the new guy needs a "full load"-What a bunch of crock!!!!! :lol2: :lol2: That line doesn't exactly work anymore when the preceptee is doing great, it's been 3 wks., and the preceptor is still sitting on her ***!!!!! They will also make you into a scape goat if you're a new person and that's really helping the nursing shortage. Ever wonder why there's a nursing shortage????!!!!!! :rolleyes:

lamazeteacher · Feb 3, 2010

I'd like to give you dozens of "kudos", Johnny Bravo!! You said it like it is!!!

Um, also I have worked at about 5 teaching hospitals in major cities, as inservice coordinator (where I was responsible for orientation and taught the first CPR classes to every employee, when that first was started), Infection Control, Employee Health (as an advocate for employees), Administrator, and Perinatal Education Coordinator, as well as many other hats.

Lately I've been hired for just about every job (8) for which I interviewed, but once my age is known, I get fired, as the health insurance questionnaire I've been ordered to complete, gives that away.

johnnybravo8802 · Feb 3, 2010

I'd like to give you dozens of "kudos", Johnny Bravo!! You said it like it is!!!
Um, also I have worked at about 5 teaching hospitals in major cities, as inservice coordinator (where I was responsible for orientation and taught the first CPR classes to every employee, when that first was started), Infection Control, Employee Health (as an advocate for employees), Administrator, and Perinatal Education Coordinator, as well as many other hats.
Lately I've been hired for just about every job (8) for which I interviewed, but once my age is known, I get fired, as the health insurance questionnaire I've been ordered to complete, gives that away.

That's really screwed up. A hospital will fire you for parking sideways now and make up some bogus excuse to cover their tails. Anyway, you're not that old;)-I thought nurses in the middle of the road were the one's sought after-the one's who weren't really close to retirement but not new grads either. Hospitals can't decide what they want!!!!! :uhoh3: :uhoh3:

lamazeteacher · Feb 3, 2010

That's really screwed up. A hospital will fire you for parking sideways now and make up some bogus excuse to cover their tails. Anyway, you're not that old;)-I thought nurses in the middle of the road were the one's sought after-the one's who weren't really close to retirement but not new grads either. Hospitals can't decide what they want!!!!!:uhoh3:

Johnny, I hate to reveal this, but I'm past the commonly thought age of retirement, yet I don't look it (people tell me). I'm 70.

When I was 55 years old, in 1995 I was fired for the first time, from a job as the National Director of Prenatal Education with a small company that preserved the stem cells from umbilical cord blood. I interviewed, hired and educated eminent Childbirth Educators, all over the United States and Canada to be Area Coordinators who would inform the other Childbirth Educators, doctors, expectant couples and their families in their communities, about the future use to treat and cure diseases with adapted stem cells. These stem cells would be a perfect match for mom and baby; and siblings would have a 50% chance of matching them. Dad has a 12.5% chance to match.

I had just been signed up for coverage with the new health insurance company and had hired 48 Area Coordinators, when the ax fell. Previously I was told that the job I was doing was excellent, by the Vice President of the company (my immediate superior). I'd been to dozens of cities, gave talks at schools of nursing, doctors' offices, groups of Childbirth Educators, and many of the hospitals' L&D departments, and was interviewed by the media. There had been no criticism of me or my presentations, for the year I was with them. Now it has come to light that small comapanies have been assessed exorbitant premiums (over $1,000/month in addition to the regular

employees) for their covered employees who are over 55 years of age.

After I'd lost 4 jobs, a friend who owned a small company with 40 employees (about the size of the cord blood company), told me about the above practise, when she and her husband were so charged by Blue Cross. Then, when he turned 65 her husband was told by that insurer, that he couldn't use Medicare as his primary health insurance and they'd be charged over $2500/month for his coverage. They retired from heading their company and installed their son as its President, becoming consultants instead.

So that's another instance when something absurd happens, of "following the money" to get at the cause. I was able to get more positions that were interesting and challenging after that, but the pace of getting, orienting and hitting my stride, only to be fired again, wore me down. I developed a stress related illness and stopped trying as actively as I had, for work but I haven't stopped looking.

My last job a few years ago was with Blue Cross (the den of the lion) as a Disease Manager for OB patients; and when I was confronted with the form to fill out for their insurance, I said that I didn't need it as I already have

health care coverage (it was Medicare, but I didn't say that). They said that I had to fill in the form anyway; and when I left my birth year out, I was contacted by Human Resources and told to put the year of my birth in. I received 6 'phone calls from people I didn't know in the organization, to ask what my birth year was (illegal). Then I was instructed to go to their building a few miles away, immediately to write my birth date under the pictures they'd taken of me. Are they daft? Or just untouchable by the law forbidding age discrimination. the following day I was fired and asked to write a letter acknowledging same. Huh?

By then, I was no stranger to the firing process, and had learned to ask if I could quit instead when that happened before, as that would be what future employers would be told. So I wrote a letter of resignation, which caused a flurry as that wasn't what they wanted. Actually I think my supervisor's writing skills were his deficit, so I was asked to do it. After the discovery that I'd resigned, the supervisor and his assistant were quite nasty, rushing me out and insisting that I pack my stuff quicker when I refused to rewrite it as if I'd been fired. Weird! :cool: