If we had a conservative nurses forum - page 5

Would anyone post in it? :clown: I looked forward to being a nurse for so long....my second thoughts aren't because of nurses eating their own (I have never seen that!) or hours or mean docs... Read More

  1. Visit  d'cm profile page
    11
    "Conservatives",
    I would be very interested to hear the basis for your beliefs. It completely befuddles me as to why anyone other than the filthy rich, which I presume you are not, would think that it is no problem that corporations sodomize the average person with outrageous and hidden fees (Banks/ credit card companies), take the entire economy to the brink of total collapse with their mortgage/credit-default swaps, produce shoddy dangerous products (toys, cars, pharmacuticals), pollute our air, water and soil (coal, oil, chemical, etc. companies) and consume huge portions of our economy (and tax dollars)producing 3rd world health care outcomes ?
    "Controlling auto manufacturerers", I assume refers to USA loaning GM a few billion dollars with their stock as collateral. It wasn't nationalized, it was a pure capitalist business deal. In exchange we prevented millions of people from the unemployment line in an area of the country where they were already around the block - taxpayers may not get all the money back but I'd say we got our money's worth. Please, what is your problem with that?
    "Education"? What are you saying, that there shouldn't be public schools? Are you kidding me? Or are you saying that society as a whole has no interest setting standards - that every school district should be free to teach whatever they want in any way they want?
    'Healthcare". So, you think it should be totally market driven? No one has any right to healthcare, just - if want it you pay for it? If you can't -TS?
    I agree with one thing, the government is out of control - because the Republicans cut it loose from any fiscal and social responsiblity.
    xoemmylouox, NurseP00kie, shouldI, and 8 others like this.
  2. Visit  tralalaRN profile page
    1
    Quote from d'cm
    "Conservatives",
    I would be very interested to hear the basis for your beliefs. It completely befuddles me as to why anyone other than the filthy rich, which I presume you are not, would think that it is no problem that corporations sodomize the average person with outrageous and hidden fees (Banks/ credit card companies), take the entire economy to the brink of total collapse with their mortgage/credit-default swaps, produce shoddy dangerous products (toys, cars, pharmacuticals), pollute our air, water and soil (coal, oil, chemical, etc. companies) and consume huge portions of our economy (and tax dollars)producing 3rd world health care outcomes ?
    "Controlling auto manufacturerers", I assume refers to USA loaning GM a few billion dollars with their stock as collateral. It wasn't nationalized, it was a pure capitalist business deal. In exchange we prevented millions of people from the unemployment line in an area of the country where they were already around the block - taxpayers may not get all the money back but I'd say we got our money's worth. Please, what is your problem with that?
    "Education"? What are you saying, that there shouldn't be public schools? Are you kidding me? Or are you saying that society as a whole has no interest setting standards - that every school district should be free to teach whatever they want in any way they want?
    'Healthcare". So, you think it should be totally market driven? No one has any right to healthcare, just - if want it you pay for it? If you can't -TS?
    I agree with one thing, the government is out of control - because the Republicans cut it loose from any fiscal and social responsiblity.
    WOW - and, might I add. . yeah!
    xoemmylouox likes this.
  3. Visit  GooeyRN profile page
    4
    Another Conservative here! I do feel like the minority at work. I usually just bite my tongue when others start with their liberal talk. Then, I change the subject or "remember" something I had to take care of patient care wise.
  4. Visit  sameyjaney profile page
    3
    In response to the "hidden fees" are of corporations I would like to say that goes for government regulated services as well. For example, has anyone tried to obtain an RN license in another state? I have. Yes there are hidden fees. And that is the department of health. Hidden fees are everywhere, not just in corporations. As for creating dangerous pharmaceutical products...isn't that regulated by the FDA? That's the government again. Thus, if they make it to the market the government must approve them so we can't blame corporations fully for this either. As for the health care debate. Yes, health care is not what it should be. I wouldn't compare it to a 3rd world country, but it is needs some serious work. However, I strongly believe that we should have addressed the economic situation first before trying to push the health care bill through. Not only does it logically make more sense to do so, but I also believe it would have been more widely accepted and even conservatives would be more open to working on it. I am not saying my views are right or yours are wrong. I actually love debating because I truly believe that conservatives and liberals (for the most part) have similar values and beliefs. If one were to ask a conservative or a liberal if they think we need to improve our health care to ensure more people have access to services I believe both would say yes. However, their opinion on how, when and what to do varies greatly.
    DosmoRN, VivaLasViejas, and nicurn001 like this.
  5. Visit  nicurn001 profile page
    0
    Quote from sameyjaney
    in response to the "hidden fees" are of corporations i would like to say that goes for government regulated services as well. for example, has anyone tried to obtain an rn license in another state? i havearen't these state reglated , so this is related to state government not federal. yes there are hidden fees. and that is the department of health. hidden fees are everywhere, not just in corporations. as for creating dangerous pharmaceutical products...isn't that regulated by the fda? that's the government againthe government sets the legal framework corporations work in , the corporations are free to do as they choose within that framework , who other than government , democratically elected set those rules ?, although i may not like all who are in power , if elected i accept they have a mandate to introduce laws and govern as they wish. thus, if they make it to the market the government must approve them so we can't blame corporations fully for this either. as for the health care debate. yes, health care is not what it should be. i wouldn't compare it to a 3rd world country i believe the poster could have produce data to back up their statement , it is alright for us to express opinions , but unfortunately data does tend to show our system produces poor results ., but it is needs some serious work. however, i strongly believe that we should have addressed the economic situation first my recollection is that in cooperation with the bush administration , the obama administration's first efforts were to stabilise the economy and then they moved onto such things as healthcare before trying to push the health care bill through. not only does it logically make more sense to do so, but i also believe it would have been more widely accepted and even conservatives would be more open to working on it. i am not saying my views are right or yours are wrong. i actually love debating because i truly believe that conservatives and liberals (for the most part) have similar values and beliefs. if one were to ask a conservative or a liberal if they think we need to improve our health care to ensure more people have access to services i believe both would say yes. however, their opinion on how, when and what to do varies greatly.
    i agree with you that healthcare is broken and that how to fix it is a devisive matter
  6. Visit  sameyjaney profile page
    2
    Thanks for the response. I guess I believe we should have seen actual improvement in the economy. Like a stable, growing economy before addressing health care. And, I hold my belief that our outcomes are no where near those of 3rd world country most of the time. There may be some isolated events that are comparable, but most of the time our health care is far above that of a 3rd world country. And, yes I am referring to the government-federal, state, etc.
    VivaLasViejas and nicurn001 like this.
  7. Visit  nicurn001 profile page
    2
    sameyjaney , Unfortunately the economy is not something that can be fixed quickly , even in its more normal levels of rise and fall , any adjustment to the economy takes a while to bring about a change , bottom line the government ,whoever was running it , could not have waited for the economy to change before sddressing other problems .

    I'll agree with you that in many area's of healthcare our outcomes are better than third world countries , but they should be considering the amount of money , resources and level of education we can bring to bear on Healthcare , that the third world cannot equal .
    tewdles and sameyjaney like this.
  8. Visit  d'cm profile page
    6
    Here is a reference to my statement about our 3rd world healthcare system. The WHO ranked the USA 72nd in healthcare performance between Argentina and Bhutan: http://www.photius.com/rankings/worl...nce_ranks.html but it really is beside my overall point which is about how laissez faire government policy has failed, or to put it another way, that industry left to pursue profit unconstrained will do just that in disregard of public good, healthcare being no exception. How is the gulf BP oil spill any more tragic than the thousand of deaths from medical errors and trillions of dollars wasted on unnecessary and ineffective (at best) treatment. (Reference: the IOM Report on : Value in Health Care: Accounting for Cost, Quality, Safety, Outcomes).
    Actually, no. The purpose of my post was to elicit a discussion about the merits of the conservative agenda. I am sure many will argue when I equate the Republican Party with being a conservative, but if you voted Republican because you believe in conservative values it doesn't make a difference. One of the six purposes of government, as stated in the Preamble of the Constitution is to Promote the General Welfare of the People of the United States. What completely eludes me is how anyone can examine the actions and agenda of the Republican party and logically conclude they are doing it for the General Welfare of the people.
    icuRNmaggie, Sisyphus, hotflashion, and 3 others like this.
  9. Visit  dp1200 profile page
    8
    Quote from d'cm
    Here is a reference to my statement about our 3rd world healthcare system. The WHO ranked the USA 72nd in healthcare performance between Argentina and Bhutan: http://www.photius.com/rankings/worl...nce_ranks.html
    Let's apply some critical thinking here rather than just accepting this assertion at face value. This "study" you linked to above is 14 years old, and the "measures" used to compile the ranking are vague and without any explanation of what is being measured and how.

    Is there anyone here who can honestly say they would rather live in El Salvador for its health care system rather than in the US? MEXICO is ranked above the US on this list, so why are Mexicans flooding across the border to use our health care system instead of vice-versa?

    I am wholely unimpressed and unconvinced by the content of this WHO table.
    GM2RN, Bortaz, RN, BSN Happyface, and 5 others like this.
  10. Visit  dp1200 profile page
    13
    Quote from d'cm
    One of the six purposes of government, as stated in the Preamble of the Constitution is to Promote the General Welfare of the People of the United States. What completely eludes me is how anyone can examine the actions and agenda of the Republican party and logically conclude they are doing it for the General Welfare of the people.
    "Promote" does not mean "Provide". HUGE difference, although modern liberal politics has conflated the former to imply the later and thus fabricate "rights" which never existed.

    I'm sorry, but I do not think I have the RIGHT to expect the Federal Government to confiscate money from your hard-earned paycheck to pay for my health insurance, or to pay for anything else that I need or want. Personally, I do not believe that one person can claim as a right anything which must be involuntarily taken from (or paid for by) someone else in the form of either their labor or the fruits of their labor. How is this really any different than a soft form of slavery?
    spacecheetah, TLCfromSC, Bortaz, RN, and 10 others like this.
  11. Visit  d'cm profile page
    2
    what you are talking about is better related to us constitution article 1, section 8:

    [color=#000060]
    "the congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the united states;"


    i.e. you have every right to expect to be taxed and pay for things you need and a lot you don't, just like every other citizen in this and every country in the world - except maybe somalia.
    Sisyphus and hotflashion like this.
  12. Visit  DroogieRN profile page
    8
    Staunch conservative here. I like a friendly discussion on occasion but usually refrain from posting in heated threads on-line. I find it degenerates into making preposterous absolute statements and name-calling much of the time (as a post or two in this thread seem perilously close to doing...). I can't say I have ever seen anyone's mind changed by vitriol. I don't say much -- I read, I study and I vote. If I am asked directly, I will generally give my opinion on a political matter, but usually ascribe to this well-documented philosophy when it comes to arguing: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    GM2RN, icuRNmaggie, VivaLasViejas, and 5 others like this.
  13. Visit  dp1200 profile page
    9
    Quote from d'cm
    what you are talking about is better related to us constitution article 1, section 8:

    [color=#000060]
    "the congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the united states;"
    this is another unfortunate misunderstanding of our constitution. you are making the common mistake of interpreting a1-s8 as a completely unbounded, undefined, blank check for congress to do anything it wants under the guise of "general welfare", which can be construed to mean anything.

    this is not the purpose of this clause. this is an introduction to the 17 enumerated powers that follow immediately thereafter, nothing more. why bother enumerating specific powers if "general welfare" is a blank check?
    spacecheetah, TLCfromSC, Medic2RN, and 6 others like this.


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