Dozens of nurses at Northern California hospital balk at wearing locators

rstewart · Sep 26, 2005

i will probably get blasted and flamed for this, but.............why the paranoia, if you are a good employee (rn, md, cna, or whatever) then who cares if someone else knows when and where you are. a similar device came out many years ago when i was a law enforcement officer in florida, the pba and fop went balistic, but now the gps units are a normal and accepted tool in law enforcement. if ya ain't got nothing to hide, then who cares.

well if that is your argument i would suppose that you would have no problem with law enforcement randomly entering and searching your residence and those of your neighbors tonight. in fact what good reason is there for the fourth amendment since "if ya ain't got nothin" to hide......?"

more germaine to the subject at hand, however, i believe these devices are dehumanizing and insulting. it's purely a value judgement to be sure.

but consider this if you will: what sort of individual would choose nursing as a profession if they knew their verbal and nonverbal behavior would be scripted, that their every action including trips to the bathroom would be monitored and timed, that every aspect of their appearance is up for review and control, that their full name and in some cases addresses are readily available to a not so sane public......that in addition to the inconveniences which are the nature of the beast (working weekends, holidays, call, being exposed to every kind of disease known to man and a few unknown, exposure to lawsuits etc. etc.)

there is no reason to blast or flame you. if you are in possession of a nursing licence and wish to work under these conditions more power to you. regretfully there are probably plenty of individuals who either share your view or whose current life circumstances require that they endure their working conditions no matter how onerous. enough in fact that people like me must leave the bedside in order to save our own sanity.

when i do, i have no illusions that i will be missed by the powers that be beyond an extra few blanks to be filled in which of course will be attributed to the nursing shortage.

Jo Dirt · Sep 26, 2005

Oh he** no! I can see where these things are going. Let them hire some help, that will take care of the "effeciency" part.

I liken these things to an electric collar put on a dog to train it.

Work harder work faster work harder work faster....

This is a quasi solution, reinforcing the stupid public's ideas that nurses, if not constantly monitored, are irresponsible, lazy, and spend most of their time standing out in the hall talking and drinking coffee.

BamaBound2bRN · Sep 26, 2005

Well if that is your argument I would suppose that you would have no problem with law enforcement randomly entering and searching your residence and those of your neighbors tonight. In fact what good reason is there for the Fourth Amendment since "if ya ain't got nothin" to hide......?"
Well, since you brought up the Fourth Am. lets put it into perspective. The Fourth Am. does not guarantee NO SEARCH, just unreasonable. If you are going through an airport security screening for example, or a search of your immediate surroundings during a traffic stop. These are different than coming into your home. Most retailers require some sort of package check or clear plastic purses for their employers. But as a matter of fact, I don't have anything to hide and if the local police, sheriff, or even the FBI wanted to search my home, go for it! It sounds to me like there are some unhappy workers who really believe it is an "Us against Them" mentality with management, and if your situation is that bad, why not quit?

lee1 · Sep 26, 2005

Tell me just who is looking at the data, how often, did they have to hire a whole new category of help to read them??? How are the locators read??? Who has the time to read them???? Then, how is it documented??? So and so nurse spent so and so time----written somewhere??? HOW???

imenid37 · Sep 26, 2005

We have the wonderfil locators too. I often forget to wear mine. Personally, I think they are ridiculous. We also have pocket phones. If you need, call me. You won't find me sleeping somewhere. I don't do that. Hospitals have always had this kindergarten mentality that the employyes won't behave unless made to. Sorry, I am a professional and I know my job and do it. That doesn't mean I am some humourless automaton. I have a laugh and know the limits of what is okay. Honestly I don't need to be located or tracked and neither do 90% of my co-workers. There's a few that do. Management needs to "grow some gonads" and go to these people who have a problem functioning not inflict mass punishmenton the rest of us.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Sep 26, 2005

Well, since you brought up the Fourth Am. lets put it into perspective. The Fourth Am. does not guarantee NO SEARCH, just unreasonable. If you are going through an airport security screening for example, or a search of your immediate surroundings during a traffic stop. These are different than coming into your home. Most retailers require some sort of package check or clear plastic purses for their employers. But as a matter of fact, I don't have anything to hide and if the local police, sheriff, or even the FBI wanted to search my home, go for it! It sounds to me like there are some unhappy workers who really believe it is an "Us against Them" mentality with management, and if your situation is that bad, why not quit?

If it were simply a matter of 'I've got nothing to hide' then I would still have a problem with the idea of being leashed like a dog. But it's more than that. Hospitals don't spend a quarter million dollars just to make sure that you are doing your job.

This is sold as an efficiency tool. Buy our system and we can show you how to make your nurses more productive, requiring you to hire less.

How this is done is by generating data about employee work habits and 'tweaking' those habits over time. (and "data" is hard to dispute. - The data shows you can handle 8 patients. How do you dispute that?)

I'll give you an example that I believe was buried in this thread or a similar one. You wear the trackers and nothing is said for 6 months while you merrily go about your way. You're doing nothing wrong so you have nothing to be afraid about the system. In 6 months you have a unit meeting. "The data shows it takes on average 2min 42 sec to answer a call bell. That is now the standard. If it takes longer, that is an occurrence. 3 occurrences equal a verbal warning, 3 more a written warning. Ok, that's doable. But what do you think happens in 6 more months when everybody is busting their hump to beat 2min 42 seconds? That's right, in 6 months, the time to beat becomes 2min 15 sec.

If that doesn't scare you, try this: I know of a hospital that hired Filipino nurses for 1/3rd of their med surg staff and adopted the tracking system at the same time. Not even 2 months later, they upped the ratios from 5:1 to 7:1 (plus admits for sometime totals of 8-9:1). Why? Because "The Data" showed that the room/nurses station average time for nurses proved that this was consistent with safe care. Now the Filipino nurses are here at the grace of the hospital AND they are in many times unfamiliar with our culture and don't realize this is a completely unreasonable expectation. So they are aboard (especially when the 1 that complained was promptly fired). Now administration has leverage with all the others (They can do this, are you telling me that you can't? The data shows that you can. You just aren't being a team player.)

Finally, as you might know, data can be manipulated. If I don't like you and I want to get rid of you, I can make 'the Data' paint you in a bad light, whether you have 'nothing to hide' or not. We live in a data driven, research driven society. It's very difficult to refute data. (I'm sorry, but the data shows that you are taking too long in some rooms and not enough time in others. The data shows that you spend hours at the nurse's station every day. The data shows . . . The data shows . . .) This has happened. Read the initial article - the nurses only started refusing to wear the trackers when 'the Data' started to be used to terminate people.

To the extent that it's about US v. Them - these trackers are, in my opinion, definitely an attack from which I'm responding, not an offensive on my own part. It's not that I'm paranoid about collecting data on nurses to manipulate them: IT'S THAT THIS IS PRECISELY THE SELLING POINT OF THE SYSTEM.

I have nothing to hide. But I'll be danged if I'm going to wear a dog leash. In fact, I quit over it.

~faith,

Timothy.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Sep 26, 2005

And even if your administration is very passive about using the data, you cannot tell me that big brother watching you doesn't change your behavior.

In the meetings for the tracking system, an L&D nurse expressed the concern that the infrareds might not be in the delivery room: "Do we get credit for being in there?" THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT. SINCE WHEN DO I NEED CREDIT FOR DOING MY JOB?!?

Professionals don't need credit for doing their jobs.

This is different from gps trackers in police cars. That truly is a safety issue. And it's impossible to evaluate from a gps beacon if an officer is doing his/her job. Unlike nursing, it's not unreasonable for officers to sit in a stationary position for extended periods of time.

~faith,

Timothy.

live4today, RN · Sep 26, 2005

I would NEVER work where I had to wear a "tracker". :rolleyes: I am NOT an animal! SOME hospital authority figures have gone completely MAD!:angryfire

BamaBound2bRN · Sep 27, 2005

Well, this is obviously a no win argument. I just wished there were some admins. or DON's to give their perspectives. Technology has always had an evil twin for those that want to abuse it, but I believe that for every abuse there are scores of righteous uses for new technology, and to blindly lump all administrators as "Big Brother" is as demeaning as calling all nurses "Catty".

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Sep 27, 2005

Well, this is obviously a no win argument. I just wished there were some admins. or DON's to give their perspectives. Technology has always had an evil twin for those that want to abuse it, but I believe that for every abuse there are scores of righteous uses for new technology, and to blindly lump all administrators as "Big Brother" is as demeaning as calling all nurses "Catty".

Let's be clear - not all administrators - just administrators that think so low of nurses that they would install this system.

If you install a 'big brother' system in your hospital, it's not unreasonable for me to express concerns that you are a 'big brother administrator'.

~faith,

Timothy.

rstewart · Sep 27, 2005

well if that is your argument i would suppose that you would have no problem with law enforcement randomly entering and searching your residence and those of your neighbors tonight. in fact what good reason is there for the fourth amendment since "if ya ain't got nothin" to hide......?"
well, since you brought up the fourth am. lets put it into perspective. the fourth am. does not guarantee no search, just unreasonable. if you are going through an airport security screening for example, or a search of your immediate surroundings during a traffic stop. these are different than coming into your home. most retailers require some sort of package check or clear plastic purses for their employers. but as a matter of fact, i don't have anything to hide and if the local police, sheriff, or even the fbi wanted to search my home, go for it! it sounds to me like there are some unhappy workers who really believe it is an "us against them" mentality with management, and if your situation is that bad, why not quit?
let's not put up fallacious straw-man arguments to knock down; nobody said that the fourth amendment guaranteed freedom from all searches.
nor did you need to provide a laundry list of an ever broadening definition of "reasonable"; those of us who value freedom are well aware of the erosion of civil liberties/the intrusion of government. your willingness to hand over your freedom to the local police , sheriff and the fbi amazes me; but please do not expect me to do the same.
after listening to a "if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" argument with respect to the fourth amendment, why am i not surprised to see an "america love it or leave it" argument with respect to the matter under discussion?

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Sep 27, 2005

Another point is that this is a liability issue for nurses. If you are sued along with the hospital, that hospital has a mountain of data on your work habits.

All the hospital has to do is prove that your actions violated policy or are outside the bounds of a 'prudent' nurse. Your umbrella protection under the hospital falls apart at that point.

With weeks, months, or years of data on you, you don't think the hospital can find the time when you were sick and in the bathroom 5 times in 1 shift? You don't think that corporate lawyers can't manipulate raw data into a 'report' that points blame for the lawsuit, Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and the plaintiff's dirty laundry as squarely your fault?

But I'm being paranoid of management. Of course they have no ulterior motives in tracking nurses.

~faith,

Timothy.