Concealed Carry...as a nurse?

[mcknis]

With the current news over gun control and gun rights legislation being pushed through Congress as a result of the tragedies of Aurora, CO, Newtown, CT and the others like them, the thought of concealed carry among healthcare workers has got my attention peaked. Recently, another Allnurses member started a thread (up to 22 pages presently) about what nurses can do as a result of these horrific events.

This post is not meant to reflect my personal stance on this issue, although I can inform that I am not a CCL holder (however interested), nor is it meant to be a bashing session from either side, but I am interested in seeing how many individuals have their concealed carry license, and if they carry while they are at work (and, yes I am well aware of the legal stance healthcare facilities take as being gun free zones)?

I, also, am aware of some of our members being both nurses and current/former law enforcement officers, so what is your take on this issue?

[uRNmyway, ASN, RN]

It is sad to see that so many nurses seem to have a need to carry guns when their purpose is the opposite of what our mission is.

It is unfortunate that the NRA has been able to brainwash so many people. I guess it is my problem to have been brought up in a Quaker atmosphere.

I agree, it IS sad. But what is sad about it is that we feel the need to! Nurses are mistreated, abused, threatened on a pretty regular basis, with very little protection or support.

I don't think the NRA and brainwashing has anything to do with anything. I have never listened to any speeches or comments from the NRA. And I still know that if I am in a high crime area, I want to be able to protect myself and my loved ones. And if I worked in a department with higher likelihood of angry/disgruntled patients and their families, the dysfunctional ones who make threats or act on them, I would definitely want a way to save our butts if need be. Because like others said, sure, you can call the police and let them handle it. But how many innocent people will be hurt while you hide and wait for them?

[pmabraham, BSN, RN]

Good day:

In the U.S. the 2nd amendment was created long before the existence of the NRA.

Gun control allowed the holocaust to happen; and we wouldn't be the U.S. if our forefathers did not fight against tyranny (the 2nd amendment is about defense as well as protection against tyranny).

Bottom line is freedom.

Those who want to carry and carry responsibly (which is not defined by # of bullets or the "look" of their firearm) should be allowed to carry. Those who don't believe it carrying... that's fine too. Don't take away the rights of one or the other.

Thank you.

[mclennan, BSN, RN]

I see no option in the poll or mention anywhere on this thread of being conflicted, confused and not sure where one stands on this issue. No one here seems brave enough to say "I don't know." And that is a reflection of a greater problem.

People are so dead set in their beliefs and refuse to budge, no one considers maybe challenging themselves to think differently. In America we are conditioned to subscribe to one value system, and stick to it forever. Too many people in this country beat on their chests, declaring their set-in-stone beliefs to be their "identity" rather than actually consider the other guy's beliefs might have some value too. People think they're being patriotic, and they're really being anti-intellectual, arrogant and narrow minded. No one wants to lay down their big dumb swords and really explore different ways of thinking.

That being said, I do have a CC permit from my home state, but reside in CA now where CC is illegal. I was raised around guns, have safety training and used to target practice and carry far more often. But the Aurora and Sandy Hook shootings have my beliefs about guns rattled. I am not sure what I feel about this lately.

I tend to think in a libertarian way about things: less government and more personal responsibility. But our culture has become consumed with violence - guns everywhere on TV, movie and video game screens, violence and killing FETISHIZED by 24 hour media. All while funding and resources to treat mental health are being cut. I mean, come on. That's not opinion. That is fact.

So I'm conflicted. I think people should be able to arm themselves. I am a small woman who walks alone in a dangerous city. My black belt in aikido won't take out a 6-ft.+ 350lb. monster high on meth. I want the right to protect myself with a gun.

But when I see how painfully stupid and ignorant of facts most NRA/pro-gun people are I'm embarrassed. Anti-gun lefties are equally ignorant and totally unrealistic, thinking we can legislate our way to some dream world where no one kills anyone. Both sides SUCK. Neither wants to meet in the middle. And American gun owners who have brains and compassion SHOULD BE CONFLICTED right now. I sure as heck am.

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

Besides, a gun is only useful if you see an attack coming. Otherwise there are several self-defence techniques that will serve you better. Jiu-jitsu and krav maga work for me.

^ Unarmed Gun violence survivor here...Ladyfree 1, opposition 0 (six feet under)

I was on my way as a HH nurse to do a private duty case in a "nicer" area of the city where I live. My suicidal ex-boyfriend followed me (undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenic; mother has the disorder) as I had a restraining order against him. He was outright threatening me and my family. I planned on getting a gun permit and learning how to shoot, safety issues and obtaining a gun legally to my stature to fire; most likely a .45.

How did I survive 7 bullets at close range by a Barretta??? Bystanders helped, there was a police car in the area (at a local high school, literally 1/2 city block away, so they were there by the time the first shot was fired) and I used self defense moves from preventing him from blowing off my face or possibly having a bullet from my spinal cord, which was his initial and intended target. He was a licensed firearm holder. The courts did not revoke his license to carry, even though I explicitly told them he had a gun, and threatened me with it, or the sheriff department did mot seize it; the police department does not get involved in seizures of guns before a crime, especially in a city that has 300+ murders/year. It helped that It was winter, In our area, a down coat is wearable, so the coat got the rest of the bullets. He committed suicide. I was shot by a gun used for a "straw" (not a "legal" purchase, serial numbers rubbed off, several people had the gun or it was stolen from a legal gun owner) purchase, and he literally had enough bullets to take out the whole community.

If I had a legal gun, would I have been able to avoid trauma surgery, Abdominal area opened and healing by secondary intention for 2 months, 7days in the ICU, going through the wound care, the assumptions, the PTSD, welfare, the Social Security disability process? I'm not sure...I have stopped asking those questions five years ago, 1/29/2008, when I was shot. I found a way to survive without a gun.

I understand the comments that in rural areas, the need may be different, however, I find urban areas, there is an influx of guns used as a solution to mental health crises, for homicide and for suicide, and I see that where mass shootings, and shootings when suburban and rural areas are involved occur...in the rural part of the state, there a responsible gun owners who shoot their families, it is still happening...the urban area deals with it x50-100, but it still occurs. Crisis has no color, socioeconomic status, or geographic area bias. It happens.

I was a nurse who took care of pts who were survivors of gun violence, before I got shot, and the debilitating injuries sustained by my pts and I, were a long rehabilitative process. A lot if lost work, dinged for preexisting health conditions, loss of insurance, all these situations make me look at the gun debate and desire a decrease of guns. I feel as though there are too many guns out there, I feel high powered automatics belong in law enforcement hands. And after my ordeal, due to my PTSD, I HAVE NO DESIRE TO PICK UP or FIRE A GUN...I have to emphatically state this. To smell gun powder on me for 2 months straight, the fear of fire cracker, or the out shot of a car STILL makes me jump occasionally...I have been in EDMR therapy for 2 years, following psychotherapy and counseling for 3 years, and I do not want to touch or see a gun in my presence.

I feel as though I am not equipped to handle a gun, and I've had threats against me and my staff where I worked, I have been threatened in the past. I have worked in the inner city, and in suburban/rural areas. I got the equal amount of threats, however, I will say I have more threats of gun harm in the suburbs, I've gotten the fistacuffs in urban areas...guess because no one wants to be shot after they are visiting a lived one in a facility where they are surrounded by people who are survivors of gun violence-*shrugs*

My pts have been drug dealers, drug addicts, felons, part of gangs, the mafia, and murderers. Even working in pediatrics, you have the parents whose past may be suspect. I have continued to use techniques to counter behavior, even in environments where "the customer is always right" even if they threatened you-this was my previous employer, a pediatric facility. So far no promises on those threats...due to the techniques described by macawake.

The real issue for me is finding ways for facilities to be safer for nurses and caregivers. For me, there is a boundary line that I have ALWAYS had with pts and family members...noticed I said I have been threatened, but no bodily harm or stalking has occurred. I have no filter, I don't have time for the drama, and if you are not happy, you will need to create a happy place and space, otherwise you will be out of here. Most people who have threatened my have apologized, or avoided me...either it was an empty threat, or my techniques have been successful. Either way, I would prefer that facilities should have a mini-police force like the huge trauma centers I have worked for (these places have been trained by my city's police department), but on a smaller scale, and have access to use a firearm if there is action on the gun man'a part. I'm not sure if this could be successful, or fully fundable, but I would prefer that men and women coming home from these wars, after debriefing if needed, can fill these roles...they have the training, the military has used these techniques for a long time (per my experience with my family members-from a military family) and are more suitable.

I am also in support if they are on their way, if a nurse or Dr has a concealed weapon, if they use it, so be it...just make sure that the bullet is not traveling to potentially hit a bystander.

Please forgive me for the long text, and being all over the place. I am currently an advocate against gun violence and DV, and although emotions are high about this issue, I hope that we can have honest, logical conversation about assisting people in crisis, and managing emotions, even if a threat against a nurse should be a felony with required intensive therapy and anger management for 2 years, if they find individuals have continuing mental health issues, if they have a license to carry, for it to be immediately revoked, etc...solutions to at least decrease or delay the possibility of the access of guns...I know the reality of laws on the books can be ineffective, but there has to be a way to protect healthcare workers against violence, as well as decrease gun violence. And it's not the video games, the tv, I don't blame those issues either, because violence and guns have been accessible since our early days in this country, and in civilized countries as a use for power...even if we deal with personal emotions of feeling powerless as a start, with the public, something is better than what is happening right now.

[uRNmyway, ASN, RN]

LadyFree28, first I want to say I am so sorry for what you went through, and wish you all the best for your continued recovery. I understand that your experiences make this a particularly sensitive subject for you, and I applaud you for being able to stay calm and rational about the debate.

I do agree that more guns will not solve anything. I do agree that more needs to be done as far as controlling use and availability. However, this needs to be more of a screening issue. There should be more mental health screening for sure (but then you have angst-y teens who take their parents guns or whatever). There should be better background checks. There should be mandatory training and followup like they have in Switzerland.

Then there are just the crime issues. I mean, like most pro-gun people will tell you, 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'. If someone wants to kill or hurt, they will do so regardless of availability of guns. Heck, if someone wants a gun, there are ways to get them without doing all the hoopla. Ask most gang-bangers. I doubt those guys have legally registered guns. How do you decrease crime rates? Stiffer penalties? I don't think that would do it. In Canada, most crimes that here would get you a prison sentence leave you with a slap on the wrist, and crime rates there are lower in general. So stiffer penalties don't necessarily lead to less crime. Decriminalizing drugs? That might decrease gang activity and the drug trade, which is usually a pretty violent one. But then again, it might not.

Educating the population some more? I mean, I think the education system definitely needs some work. But how long can you keep shoving it down people's throats? People who just do not value education because their parents don't value education, because their parents didn't either, etc, they just aren't going to care.

I just don't have the answers. All I know is that as it is, crime rates are high. Violent crime rates especially. Or at least much higher than I feel comfortable with. And I am not comfortable with the idea that I can't protect my family from all that violence without buying some private island somewhere and completely isolating ourselves from all the wackos.

[AngelfireRN, MSN, RN, APRN]

My feelings on gun control? The government does not have the manpower to enforce what gun laws are on the books NOW, let alone enforce the additional ones.

I agree that a criminal will find a means to commit a crime if a legally procured firearm is not readily available, knives, shivs, a lead pipe, or bare hands come to mind.

I also agree with Jewles...short of a private island or a bunker or a castle with a moat and a drawbridge...no true means of isolating oneself.

[LoveNeverDies]

Well, first off let me say that I have been shooting guns for 12 years. I have even participated in gun competitions. I plan on carrying my CC when I am old enough to obtain it. I doubt that I will ever carry it into work with me, depends on where I work I guess. I think if someone has followed the legal route of obtaining a gun and taken the course they have every right to carry in MOST places. Most responsible gun owners know when it is appropriate and when it is not. I want to be a nurse, I want to help people, but I know that in a situation to protect myself or others I will without question. It is within my rights. Would I ever brandish a gun, or threaten to use it unless my life was in immediate danger? Of course not. I pray that I will never have to use on another human being. I can however understand people fearing guns, and I do not think they should have guns or feel like they need too. Some people have guns when they shouldn't, LadyFree I am very sorry for what you had to go through. I wish that there were better ways to control gun distribution. For those of you against guns and my opinion, please know that I respect your opinion on guns, but crimes occur all the time with many different weapons and sometimes with none at all. A knife is a deadly weapon, as can be a car. A gun is only as dangerous as the person holding it.

[That Guy, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

I dont carry in to work. When it stays in the Jeep, it is in a bolted down locked container. I feel safer carrying when I am around town. You would never know I carry either.

I have never drawn my weapon on anyone and I hope I never have to either. But I want that tool available if I ever need it.

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

I appreciate those who have commented on my situation. I returned to school obtain my BSN (May 2012 graduate, licensed in June) about 1 year after the trauma, and I am starting my RN career as a PICU RN in Monday.

And the bystanders who helped me survive were registered gun owners, including a new mom who was walking her baby and intervened during the struggle...her husband is a CO, and had a gun securely locked in her home. A person who was driving by worked for the police, and had a licensed to carry as well, and there were gun fire exchanged. He was not hurt and helped me get away after I was shot, and it did cause my attacker to retreat. A lot of factors were involved, and I take that in consideration during this topic. It was a high tense, yet structured way to help me survive the immediate danger, and that was successful.

[AngelfireRN, MSN, RN, APRN]

Ladyfree, if it ever goes down, I want you on my team! What a strong person you are!

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

I am in support of responsible gun owners. I am concerned about how to make more responsible gun owners. We have both rights, as well as responsibilities as citizens. If that responsibility is to tweak laws and provide strategies, which may include more in depth screenings, reestablishment of a comprehensive mental health program, or the other options I suggested in my previous post, any discussion and common sense solutions should at least be a start.

[klone, MSN, RN]

The difference between Canada's and the US's violent crime rates has less to do with availability of guns and more to do with demographics. Chicken or the egg I guess. Are there less guns in Canada because Canadians are less violent and so we are less concerned with protecting ourselves, or is there less crime there because there are no guns as opposed to because people are just less violent to begin with?

Michael Moore addressed this issue in "Bowling for Columbine". No, Canadians are not less violent (nor are Europeans that all have fewer gun deaths than we do ).