"Socialized medicine" - page 8

I am interested in your opinions about introducing a national healthcare system in the United States. What do you think about introducing free basic packet of healthcare services (e.g. emergency... Read More

  1. by   gwenith
    Quote from jenruth
    Very true. It could never be completely free. What worries me about socialized medicine, is that it would remove the individual person's power of choice. Every aspect of one's healthcare would be directed and managed by bureaucrats. Noncompliance would result in being refused insurance coverage. And what would be done with people in high-risk groups for certain diseases and conditions? Such a system might refuse them any insurance coverage.
    This is one of those myths that seems to persist. Yes if you turn up to a public hospital you do not get a choice of who you see but I think that is the same everywhere. We do, however get a choice of GP - basically whoever you want but the GP does not care for you in hospital unless you are going to a private hospital - public hospitals yp no choice - you will be placed under a consultant which will be whoever is on for that day but often the consultant who is seeing you as a public patient would also see you as a private patient if you so chose.

    Since ours is a two tier system we have the choice of having private health insurances as well so if we want to we CAN have a choice.

    Even in the public hospitals there is a an opt out option. You can ask for another doctor if you have an issue with the person currently treating you - it is not often done but the option IS there.
  2. by   fergus51
    I've never understood why people think that either Gwenith. When a baby is born in my hospital here in California, they get the neonatologist that happens to be on. They don't get to go through a menu to pick one. It's no different than in Canada. I have been sick and worked in both countries and don't see a real difference when it comes to decision making. It's between the patient and the doctor. I don't know any docs who make decisions based on insurance companies or the government.
  3. by   kpapi
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I am not at all smart on the issue, I readily admit. I have nothing but questions myself:

    Like IF we justify spending the bucks to build bigger, better weapons systems, enough to destroy the world- 2000 times over......

    And IF we can spend big bucks on charity overseas, foreign worker recruitment, etc.....

    And IF we can afford mass bail-outs of failing corporations in the form of "corporate welfare"........

    IF we can continue to cover illegal and undocumented immigrant/indigent care......


    IF we can spend millions to celebrate the inauguration of a President (not just Bush)......

    then why can't we insure the WORKING POOR?????!!!!!!! You know, the poor average sucker who DOES hold a low-paying, unbenefitted job? The ones we are seeing increase in numbers EVERY year that passes as companies just cut these benefits out from under them?????? The one whose working backs on which building a great nation's progress rests????

    Anyone????

    As I said, I am not too damn smart after all. I just have that BURNING "why" question that I can't seem to get any answers to.
    Why indeed!?! When you get the answer to these questions, please share them. I too have been asking myself those very same questions.
  4. by   Nancy2
    Quote from gwenith
    This is one of those myths that seems to persist. Yes if you turn up to a public hospital you do not get a choice of who you see but I think that is the same everywhere. We do, however get a choice of GP - basically whoever you want but the GP does not care for you in hospital unless you are going to a private hospital - public hospitals yp no choice - you will be placed under a consultant which will be whoever is on for that day but often the consultant who is seeing you as a public patient would also see you as a private patient if you so chose.

    Since ours is a two tier system we have the choice of having private health insurances as well so if we want to we CAN have a choice.

    Even in the public hospitals there is a an opt out option. You can ask for another doctor if you have an issue with the person currently treating you - it is not often done but the option IS there.
    If you choose to buy your own insurance, do you get a tax credit for not being in the socialized program?
  5. by   StNeotser
    Quote from jenruth
    Very true. It could never be completely free. What worries me about socialized medicine, is that it would remove the individual person's power of choice. Every aspect of one's healthcare would be directed and managed by bureaucrats. Noncompliance would result in being refused insurance coverage. And what would be done with people in high-risk groups for certain diseases and conditions? Such a system might refuse them any insurance coverage.
    Having been a patient under the UK National Health Service and had private health insurance in the US I'd just also like to add this;

    The majority of Americans have no choice in who insures them; that choice is made for them by their employer.

    The insurer then makes choices on which doctors are in network. PPO's are obviously better than HMO's. In my experience, the choice is far less in the US system.

    I can't see an argument for less choice under a universal healthcare system.

    Having lived under both systems I can tell you that the six of one, half a dozen of the other argument runs true.

    However, I do feel more comfortable with a society that believes in healthcare as a right, not a privilege.
  6. by   menetopali
    the US system needs a major overhaul. the two-tier system sounds like a good way to go to me as it provides some base level of care to all (and i would even be willing to pay extra in taxes if it were managed well and shielded from predatory lawyers). maintaining a second tier private system maintains the profit motive and will produce more medications and medical interventions that will benefit everyone as well. JMHO
  7. by   Indy
    "Did you ever stop to think how much the IRS spends in payroll to it's own employees each year? How much of our taxes would actually be available to the defecit if we were at a flat tax and all those people were not on the government payroll? No, it would not pay the national debt, but it sure would help a LOT. And still there are arguments FOR socialized medicine?"

    I have to admit, I am sorta fond of the flat tax idea, but I don't know what army it would take to actually DO this, as you're asking the government to fire a whole messload of government employees, and to spend their money in a more commonsense manner.
    -Indy
  8. by   talaxandra
    Quote from Nancy2
    If you choose to buy your own insurance, do you get a tax credit for not being in the socialized program?
    All tax payers in Australia (over a threshold income) pay a Medicare levy. People who earn over $50,000 PA pay an additional surcharge equal to 1% of their taxable income unless they have private insurance (for me this works out to be lower than top level insurance with super extras). People who join a private insurance fund after the age of thirty have to pay additional fees on an age-based schedule, an inducement to have young healthy people contribute to the private system.

    Just a quick word on choosing your own doctor - as Gwenith said, you can pick your own GP, and you still have full say in any fee-paying medico (eg specialist). Outside my own specialties I have no idea which surgeons etc I want, so I'm happy to go with the doctor on duty, unless a friend or colleague has a suggestion, and then I can just say that I'd prefer X, or would like a second opinion from Y. It doesn't happen often, but it certainly does happen, with no major drama.
  9. by   marvelous_truth
    Quote from Indy
    "Did you ever stop to think how much the IRS spends in payroll to it's own employees each year? How much of our taxes would actually be available to the defecit if we were at a flat tax and all those people were not on the government payroll? No, it would not pay the national debt, but it sure would help a LOT. And still there are arguments FOR socialized medicine?"

    I have to admit, I am sorta fond of the flat tax idea, but I don't know what army it would take to actually DO this, as you're asking the government to fire a whole messload of government employees, and to spend their money in a more commonsense manner.
    -Indy
    I am glad that some advocate more efficient tax system. The IRS itself is a complete fraud but doing away with it would be more monumental than what you are suggesting.
  10. by   marvelous_truth
    Quote from ArwenEvenstar
    I am NO expert on this issue. But I know that some Americans tend to think of socialized medicine as this practically perfect system. "Everyone gets free health care! We need that here!" But as mentioned in the above post from Australia, in socialized systems you can often have long waiting lists! And only those who can afford to pay privately or have a private health insurance policy can get immediate/prompt care. Does this seem fair? The wealthier get better care than the poor. Hey...this sounds similar to the complaints about our US system of private health care! See...there is no perfect system! Socialized medicine and privatized medicine both have problems.

    I used to live near the Canadian border and we sometimes had Canadians come to our US hospitals to pay privately for care because they were on a several year long waiting list for the procedure in Canada.

    And Americans seem to complain a lot about taxes... But do you know how high the tax rates are in these "cradle to grave" countries?? Most Americans would probably flip their lids. Socialized health care isn't free...they pay for it through high tax rates.

    I personally prefer out US private system.

    Anyhow...I better stop writing because this topic can easily head off into political issues....
    Socialism leads to what you might have in PRISON NO FREEDOM and your 3 square meals a day.
    As an American champion freedom and true principles of freedom as rediscovered by the founding fathers. 2 founders have warned..
    Those who give up freedom for a little security deserve neither and will end up with neither. This is not an opinion but rather historical fact that continues to progress even here now in the good ole US of A.

    Promised and promoted government security is a myth and will destroy freedoms of our future and has been placing our children into further bondage and un payable debts.
  11. by   pickledpepperRN
    I think there is a big difference between a socialist/communist dictatorship and a democracy.
    Great Britian has socialized medicine controlled by the voters.

    Not my first choice but certainly as free as we are in the USA.
    Many of us are afraid to change jobs for fear of losing our healthcare.
  12. by   marvelous_truth
    Quote from spacenurse
    I think there is a big difference between a socialist/communist dictatorship and a democracy.
    Great Britian has socialized medicine controlled by the voters.

    Not my first choice but certainly as free as we are in the USA.
    Many of us are afraid to change jobs for fear of losing our healthcare.

    I like your signature quote. (I have no idea who Lilian Wald is?) We need a true HEalth promoting system that promotes an ounce of prevention more than it promotes a puond of treatment.
  13. by   pickledpepperRN
    Lillian Wald was the creator of Public Health nursing:

    http://www.jwa.org/exhibits/wov/wald/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillian_Wald

    I read that you are a pre nursing student.
    I hope your program includes nursing history including Lillian, Lavinia Dock, and Mary Breckenridge.

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