NP education - a rant - page 7

I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP... Read More

  1. by   Jo Dirt
    Right or wrong I'm wanting to get into a NP program ASAP. I honestly don't believe that having an ASN-MSN degree is a defect. I've been an LPN for four years and imagine I will get some experience as an RN while I would be in an NP program. I do understand the concern about the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am graduates who are taken in for the sake of filling up seats in schools, and I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

    I just don't think it makes someone who is an ASN inferior because they go to a bridge program to become an NP.
  2. by   Jess RN
    I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.
    You know, I was going to just let it go and not post any more, but oh my gosh are you kidding?!?!?!

    The acceptance rates at the direct entry programs I've applied to are in the teens. That's equivalent to getting into an Ivy league school out of high school. These programs are extremely difficult to get into and from what I've heard extremely intense academically and clinically. For goodness sake, I hope that after graduation, my RN colleagues will judge me on my clinical skills and ablities with patients, not the pathway to nursing I took. My word!

    -Jess
  3. by   Fiona59
    I've worked shifts where a few of these transfer degree nurses have had their clinical shifts. Degrees in Business Administration, Literature, etc. They had no idea of how to do a bed bath, turn a post op patient, or remove drains. Had to "assist" their instructor in drain removal.

    One actually told me that they didn't spend too much time on those things because that is what LPNs are for!!?? They all seemed to think that they would automatically become charge nurses or go onto NP courses.

    The NPs I've worked with were wonderful nurses and all in their late 40s and early 50s. They had years of hands on experience to fall back on, often having worked nursing stations in Canada's far north.

    Not everything can be learnt in a course, no matter how academically inclined you are. Life and work experience is crucial to an NP. They are often dealing with life and death situations.
  4. by   MaleRN2B
    Quote from suzanne4
    You actually know what area that you want to specialize in, before you even work as a nurse? Glad that you are getting the two years of experience first, as many ideas will change.

    Good luck to you.................
    Hi all. I don't know what area I want to specialize in. Only that I think I want to be a nurse. My mother's a med/surg nurse by the way. NP appeals to me because the Peace Corps hires very few RNs and having been a PC Volunteer, I've decided that I would like to gain the skills that would allow me to travel again and make a difference. That would be an option but I'm sure that those positions are extremely competitive, like Peace Corps itself. I would almost certainly need some experience with tropical medicine. I don't care so much about the money. I want to travel.

    At almost 40 years of age and with a great deal more maturity and ability than most students right out of high school, I'm glad that there is a 2nd degree program that will allow me to get me RN in only 2 years. There is something to be said for accelerated programs in cases like mine. I certainly don't discount the value of experience but I also don't have 4 years to put into another BS degree.

    This is a fantastic site and has been very helpful to me. I've been to the travel nursing forum, this NP forum, the volunteer and international nursing forum, and have learned something at each one. I'm becoming more convinced that nursing might be right for me. I'm starting pre-requisite classes for the 2nd degree program here in the fall. It will take me a couple of semesters to get accepted. It's been over 10 years since I took some of my biology classes. I trust my university's ability to train RNs in 2 years because on the NCLEX they pass over 90% of their students on the first try.

    Thanks again everyone. Sounds like nursing attracts a very diverse group like any other profession. I value your opinions and I'll be watching!
  5. by   Gennaver
    Quote from future nurse jess
    You know, I was going to just let it go and not post any more, but oh my gosh are you kidding?!?!?!

    The acceptance rates at the direct entry programs I've applied to are in the teens. That's equivalent to getting into an Ivy league school out of high school. These programs are extremely difficult to get into and from what I've heard extremely intense academically and clinically. For goodness sake, I hope that after graduation, my RN colleagues will judge me on my clinical skills and ablities with patients, not the pathway to nursing I took. My word!

    -Jess
    Hi Jess,

    Oh my goodness, I didn't read that whole BA in basket weaving the first time it posted. Good grief! Do people really think like this? This is the myth I was trying to debunk the first time around but, puh-lease :chuckle

    The fact that we must have the pre-requisites complete, quanitfyable life experience, realistic expectations, high enough entrance scores and also succeed in our full-time 500 level curriculum must totally escape some of these posters, (the ones who think the masters entry programs are bogus).

    Oy!

    I wonder though how many of these are posters trying to defend and justify the legitimacy of their own graduate experience? Possibly they are under the influence that our NP program is going to be as theirs was?

    One thing for certain though, our work ethic, manner and ability will speak volumes more to people and these are things that online anonymity will prevent our naysayers from ever knowing.

    Whewie, grumpy naysayers, eh? :chuckle BA in Basket weaving?
    Gennaver
    p.s. oh yeah, I was leaving this thread, (by the way, have you noticed the op's history? I took a look and the op had some slights against doctors too in the hostil md thread-smells like a troll to me)
  6. by   mango-lo-maniac
    ..
    Last edit by mango-lo-maniac on Feb 16, '05
  7. by   bruinlaura
    Quote from LPNtoRN
    I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.
    Man, if I'd only know that an undergraduate degree in basketweaving existed I wouldn't have bothered with this Bachelors of Science in psychobiology nonsense. :chuckle
  8. by   acutecarenp
    Quote from LPNtoRN
    Right or wrong I'm wanting to get into a NP program ASAP. I honestly don't believe that having an ASN-MSN degree is a defect. I've been an LPN for four years and imagine I will get some experience as an RN while I would be in an NP program. I do understand the concern about the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am graduates who are taken in for the sake of filling up seats in schools, and I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

    I just don't think it makes someone who is an ASN inferior because they go to a bridge program to become an NP.
    Well....I have been reading this thread for a while and now feel compelled to add my comments...for what they are worth.

    I have been an RN since 1982. I am currently finishing the clinical portion of an NP program while working full-time in an ED.
    Over the years, I have been asked to act as a preceptor for new RNs and have gladly agreed to do so.

    My current preceptee is in his late 50s, had a previous career as an MBA, entered a 2nd degree BSN program 15 months ago and just passed his State Board exam in December of 2004. He has aspirations of becoming an NP and is returning to school to begin an MSN-NP program this fall.

    First of all, let me say that this guy is very caring and seems really dedicated to learning all there is to know about being an RN. Unfortunately, he seems to be under the assumption that he can do it all in a couple of months...And, the medical center seems to be operating with the same delusional thought process! They seem to think that all you need to do with a new RN is put them on the same schedule as someone with experience, and by some miracle of diffusion of knowledge and experience , and when the moon and stars are aligned correctly, POOF!...you have a produced a competent practitioner!

    Am I getting old or was there a time when you needed to work for a year or so before applying for an ER position? ...but I digress.

    I am sure this guy "imagines he will get some experience" before entering an NP program in the fall... but right now...

    he cannot find his a-- with both hands!

    ...and I am pretty sure he will not be able to function independently as competent nurse in a busy ED in the three months "alotted" by the medical center ( An arbitrarily decided upon time frame with no real data to support it).

    I am not saying that I am against 2nd degree programs. And, I do feel that there is a portion of the education process that needs to be expedited in order to attract new nurses.

    I am saying however, that if we are going to look at ramming people through specially designed nursing programs as one of the solutions to the "nursing shortage", we need to take a serious look at orientation and preceptorship, and not let staffing issues dictate how we prepare new grads to be safe, competent nurses.

    The debate about NP vs PA and 2nd degree progams vs nurses who chose to be nurses while they were still in the womb, will continue forever, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

    However, I think the real core of the debate is, and will continue to be about clinical experience. And, instead of the "my degree can beat-up your degree" conversation, we should focus our energy on what we need to do to pick-up where the schools of nursing have left off and talk about what we, as a profession, need to do to fix the problem.

    That's all I have for now.
  9. by   Jo Dirt
    I know someone who has a degree in psychology who brags that she can get into a BSN program and be finished in a year or so. I don't understand how this could be, as the required courses for nursing students are not the same as the ones for liberal arts students (especially in the sciences). Therefore, I have to think these schools are just taking them in to do a quickie job and turn them out to be RN's. I work with an LPN in home health who also works at a hospital and she told me there is an RN there who graduated with a degree in biology and went through the bridge program to a BSN and she can't find her you-know-what with both hands. She knows nothing about catheters, feeding tubes, she can't do ANYTHING.
  10. by   Jupiter
    Quote from LPNtoRN
    I know someone who has a degree in psychology who brags that she can get into a BSN program and be finished in a year or so. I don't understand how this could be, as the required courses for nursing students are not the same as the ones for liberal arts students (especially in the sciences). Therefore, I have to think these schools are just taking them in to do a quickie job and turn them out to be RN's. I work with an LPN in home health who also works at a hospital and she told me there is an RN there who graduated with a degree in biology and went through the bridge program to a BSN and she can't find her you-know-what with both hands. She knows nothing about catheters, feeding tubes, she can't do ANYTHING.
    You know, I just have to point out here that "not being able to find one's a** w/ both hands" could have as much to do with the individual as it does with his or her choice of undergraduate degree. And as a grad student in psych, I would also like to point out that there is a lot of biology, child and adult development studies, and research in my field - as well as a *LOT* of patient-contact - (though no basket-weaving :chuckle ) - qualities I would think would enhance, not obstuct, nursing education.

    Since I began working in a hospital with graduates of accelearted programs (who by the way could find a**es, among other things with their eyes closed !) I have realized that you CAN become a great nurse, even if you have not had 20 years of nursing experience... it all depends on the indvidual.

    Of course, experience is important - but some people are able to "catch up" faster than others, if nursing is really what they are meant to do. Maturity, work experience in general, and the ability to learn quickly seem to count for a lot. Witnessing this had inspired me to pursue nursing at this point in my life, and I honestly believe that I will make a better nurse now than I would have if I had gone into the field 15 years ago.

    That's just my opinion, and I'm sticking to it
  11. by   ProfRN4
    Quote from acutecarenp
    ..and, the medical center seems to be operating with the same delusional thought process! they seem to think that all you need to do with a new rn is put them on the same schedule as someone with experience, and by some miracle of diffusion of knowledge and experience , and when the moon and stars are aligned correctly, poof!...you have a produced a competent practitioner!

    am i getting old or was there a time when you needed to work for a year or so before applying for an er position? ...but i digress.


    ...and i am pretty sure he will not be able to function independently as competent nurse in a busy ed in the three months "alotted" by the medical center ( an arbitrarily decided upon time frame with no real data to support it).

    i am saying however, that if we are going to look at ramming people through specially designed nursing programs as one of the solutions to the "nursing shortage", we need to take a serious look at orientation and preceptorship, and not let staffing issues dictate how we prepare new grads to be safe, competent nurses.

    the debate about np vs pa and 2nd degree progams vs nurses who chose to be nurses while they were still in the womb, will continue forever, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

    however, i think the real core of the debate is, and will continue to be about clinical experience. and, instead of the "my degree can beat-up your degree" conversation, we should focus our energy on what we need to do to pick-up where the schools of nursing have left off and talk about what we, as a profession, need to do to fix the problem.

    that's all i have for now.
    very good post. everyone is in such a hurry to get out of school. i certainly understand theat people want to get on with their lives, and start making money raise a family, whatever. but it's become a contest to see who can get through nursing school in the least amount of time. and while it may be good for some, it may not work for others, and the results can be dangerous in the field :uhoh21:

    you bring up an excellent point, about orientations: while nursing school is getting shorter, so are the orientations. we have to hurry up and get these new nurses on the floors, and while they're on orientation, admin's attitude is "well you have an orientee on the floor, so you really don't need another nurse- you have another body on the floor". i understand that new nurses cannot be on orientation forever, but it's getting shorter and shorter, due to staffing constraints. and why is a brand new nurse getting the same orientation as an experienced nurse? the're supposed to be tailoring the orientation to the learners needs and experience, and i don't find this to be the case. and then not only are you expected to perform competently as a nurse, but are expected to handle the same load as the 10 yr veteran, or worse, float to another floor . i don't know, something is not right with that. but i digress...
  12. by   fotografe
    "I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program. "

    All right, as an artist I have to comment on the deriding of the "basket-weaving" degree. More than likely you are talking about a person with a degree in 3 dimensional art. Just so you know, it isn't a coast-through degree. You take all of the general education classes as any other bachelor's degree candidate and then you take of course, art courses. Some of them are very chemistry intense, some psychology-based, some history-based, some math-based. some technology based. It is a wide variety. You learn how to handle toxic materials, how to make sound structures, how to choose the appropriate material for the job. They all require problem solving skills and creativity. Something useful to nursing, no?

    Now, to get into one of these accelerated RN programs, you also have to complete the same science pre-requisites that everyone else does -- biology, A & P, Microbiology, Chem, psych, soc, nutrition etc.

    So don't make fun of us basket weavers! We are actually quite smart and well educated. The fact that we want to be nurses too just shows that.
  13. by   FNP/DNP
    Quote from CatskillNP
    I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

    Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience. Not a year of med surg, not a two year Master's, but some real NURSING experience. We are NURSE PRACTITIONERS, that's nurses with additional skill to allow the diagnosis and treatment of patient problems. It requires the inate skill that makes a nurse magnified to the 'nth degree. What makes good providers as NP's is the same characteristic that made them good nurses. It's experience.

    I'm not on a high horse, just an NP that has seen too many "rammed through the system, get their money" NP's. This job is serious. It's serious on several levels. First and formost, you are being entrusted with the care of people that put their complete fath in you to make good decisions and provide quality care.

    This IS different that being a nurse. How many times have you sat back as a nurse and berrated a provider about their choice of treatment plan or pushed for the provider to make a decision and get on with it. That all changes when you're the one with the RESPONSIBILITY for the decision. Yeah, it's an ear infection, yeah amox should do the job. Are you ready to commit fully to giving someones most honored item, their child, a drug that could kill them??? It's not cook book. It requires a base of knowledge, experience, reponsibility, and a committment to furthering your skills. It's a lifestyle!

    The second group you matter to is the professional community. As NP's, we let the schools go freaking haywire in putting out as much crud as they wanted. They saw dollar signs and began pumping out graduates without regard to job markets or the economy of NP's. Boom, a flood of NP's. Fully half of them are transfer's in from "associated science's". Read sociology, psychology, earth sciences...all able to take their bachelors in science, convert to an RN in one year, and complete their master's in two more. These people may ultimately make good NP's, but not in three years!!!! What makes anyone think that this is the way to put NP's on the map??? What kind of fodder is given to the medical community, especially, to denounce the practice of NP's as being amateurish, poorly skilled, etc. It really opens us up to all kinds of flaming by other medical groups.

    If you're an RN, thinking about becoming an NP, don't do it for the salary, chances are you're going to make more as an RN in the right setting. If NP is for you, go out and work, get a job, get several and work in areas like the ER(still, in my opinion, the best experience), community health care, critical care, etc. Then after a couple of years, think about going the MSN/NP route. You will be a better provider, it gives more credence to the profession, and ultimately the little kid with the OM will thank you for your skills.

    I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.
    You said exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. I teach at a university in the undergrad and NP program- even the curriculum committee wants a quick degree that will attract the students- no experience required. Of course the people making these decisions aren't nurse practitioners. I have spoken up a number of times, but to no avail. Glad to see it is going to a doctoral program someday, maybe this will discourage people going for a quick degree. This is not to say that I think that should be mandatory either, at least not for the experienced nurses.

    I just don't see how someone with no nursing experience could learn this field in 3 semesters. Do you?

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