NP education - a rant

Specialties NP

Published

I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience. Not a year of med surg, not a two year Master's, but some real NURSING experience. We are NURSE PRACTITIONERS, that's nurses with additional skill to allow the diagnosis and treatment of patient problems. It requires the inate skill that makes a nurse magnified to the 'nth degree. What makes good providers as NP's is the same characteristic that made them good nurses. It's experience.

I'm not on a high horse, just an NP that has seen too many "rammed through the system, get their money" NP's. This job is serious. It's serious on several levels. First and formost, you are being entrusted with the care of people that put their complete fath in you to make good decisions and provide quality care.

This IS different that being a nurse. How many times have you sat back as a nurse and berrated a provider about their choice of treatment plan or pushed for the provider to make a decision and get on with it. That all changes when you're the one with the RESPONSIBILITY for the decision. Yeah, it's an ear infection, yeah amox should do the job. Are you ready to commit fully to giving someones most honored item, their child, a drug that could kill them??? It's not cook book. It requires a base of knowledge, experience, reponsibility, and a committment to furthering your skills. It's a lifestyle!

The second group you matter to is the professional community. As NP's, we let the schools go freaking haywire in putting out as much crud as they wanted. They saw dollar signs and began pumping out graduates without regard to job markets or the economy of NP's. Boom, a flood of NP's. Fully half of them are transfer's in from "associated science's". Read sociology, psychology, earth sciences...all able to take their bachelors in science, convert to an RN in one year, and complete their master's in two more. These people may ultimately make good NP's, but not in three years!!!! What makes anyone think that this is the way to put NP's on the map??? What kind of fodder is given to the medical community, especially, to denounce the practice of NP's as being amateurish, poorly skilled, etc. It really opens us up to all kinds of flaming by other medical groups.

If you're an RN, thinking about becoming an NP, don't do it for the salary, chances are you're going to make more as an RN in the right setting. If NP is for you, go out and work, get a job, get several and work in areas like the ER(still, in my opinion, the best experience), community health care, critical care, etc. Then after a couple of years, think about going the MSN/NP route. You will be a better provider, it gives more credence to the profession, and ultimately the little kid with the OM will thank you for your skills.

I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Nursing Education.

yes, they do have to practice under a doc. i guess NP's can be independant, but they mostly work with a doc also.

Specializes in Pediatrics.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but yes, residents scare me... I love most of our residents, but I know they need a whole lotta support and supervision. It isn't because they aren't intelligent, it's just that experience does matter and by definition they don't have enough to practice independently yet. Every practitionner was at that stage at one point.

I feel the same way :no: :uhoh3:

Specializes in CTICU.

After reading many of these posts I have noticed that many people think that the direct-entry programs provide different NP education than traditional programs. The classroom and clinicals are the exact same. The difference is merely not having the extra years of RN experience (since most people in NP programs work at least part time as an RN). All of the programs I have looked into (and they are too numerous to count) only accelerate the RN portion of the program (which also means the same curricula just faster). The NP portion is 2-3 years depending on the field they chose to focus on. I just thought I would clarify that since many people have stated that direct-entry NPs have inadequate education when in fact they have the same classroom and clinical as the traditional NPs. IMO the debate should stick to the RN experience factor.

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.
You really seem to be taking this as a personal attack on your ability to do this. If you really read carefully, you will find that most feel the education you would receive would be inadequate, not you or future nurse jess as students or nurses in the future. They are not insinuating that you or anyone else can never do this. Only the way your education would be given to you in the form of a rapid entry MSN-NP. ...

Still waiting on the explanation of "integration" in your previous post.

Hello Sherrimrn,

You are very right, I did take the initial comments from the OP direct as they were aimed at a poster who was all enthused about completing her Sociology degree and entering a Direct entry program, (that would be me the OP was referring to).

As you point out now though that all those other posters were not indeed talking about personal incapabilities but rather failings of our universities to train us credibly...that seems like a stretch to me. After reading the post which said "crammed through the system,get their money, NPs" I wonder how true a concept people's understanding of MSN-NP direct entry programs are? They are not a quick and easy degree, they are not overnight, they take time and training.

To address your question about how nurses and doctors put their on the line....well, don't you do that everytime you let the tech or assistant do anything that is supposed to be your job? Although the things I was talking about were not exactly always in the scope of an assistant many of the things that affects a nurse's malpractice insurance are indeed things that are delegated to the assistants hands. Make sense? Hope so, otherwise I can't communicate worth a poops. :) :coollook:

As for the term integration, that wasn't clear, trying to say how we are all going to be care-givers. How can we be effective if we are busy acting divisive and not working together. Yet, if you are afraid or trusting the 'education' of a graduate entry NP then so be it, live and learn.

Gennaver

p.s. I read the OP correctly and the many of the others who chimed in "hear hear!" were clearly against these NPs not necessarily the program

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.

Someone mentioned something that made me think of something. I worked as an NA while I worked while going to school. I graduated when I was 20 years old. I'm sorry, but doing NA work was completely and totally different than being the RN. And you know, it makes me furious when I get an NA (not going to school, either) that says "Oh, I've been doing this for 5 years, so I am basically an RN." I've put more than one of THOSE in their place for saying that crap. I usually bring up the fact that I was a teen volunteer for three years (I did NA work on the floor, not candy striping!) then I worked for 2 years as an paid NA and now I'm a nurse.

Hello Jeepgirl,

No harm taken, just clarifying since I am the person who revealed that I worked as an NA. I was responding to the OP who claimed direct entry program applicants were basically target salespeople who decided to try to go to school for a year or so and suddenly become an NP.

For what it is worth though, I listed my history of healthcare work and that was for 15 years, in four hospitals, also as an Ambulance tech, also as a lab/tech-phlebotomist and also as a medical assistant.

I was not saying that I had anything at all over RNs.....not at all.....I was merely trying to explain that applicants to direct entry programs had more going on than just hanging up their clerk apron. We have to be qualified enough to become accepted to our programs, we have to have a BA degree, we have to have high enough GRE scores, we have to have enough experience and a realistic idea of what we are trying to do, we have to have clear goals and expectations, we have to be able to withstand the rigorous training because, all in all,that training is going to be a minimum of four years.

Gennaver

p.s. good luck with your route too! My intent was to debunk the original posters innacurate assumptions about direct entry applicants

I am also deeply disturbed by the numbers of first semester nursing students who state that they will be a CRNA in 5 years. They say 'I graduate, get my one year of experience and start CRNA school." It absolutely scares me.

Me too, Medsurgenurse. I get these types all the time as students AND new grads in my ICU and they pizz me off as well as scare me. Seemingly little appreciation either for the profession or specialties of nursing, IMHO, its just one huge 'brain suck' expedition to get where they want to be: I sense they hope to fast track to 'looking down' on all the lowly bedside nurses they leapfrogged over, without ever acquiring their skills and knowledge base. I don't understand why this is being allowed to happen. But then I also don't understand the fast track RN degree programs, taking anyone with any degree and making them a BSN to MSN in 18 months (example) either....

Part of this problem as I see it is the academic elitism that disdains practical experience and experiential learning, choosing baccalaureate/classroom settings. JMHO.

Right or wrong I'm wanting to get into a NP program ASAP. I honestly don't believe that having an ASN-MSN degree is a defect. I've been an LPN for four years and imagine I will get some experience as an RN while I would be in an NP program. I do understand the concern about the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am graduates who are taken in for the sake of filling up seats in schools, and I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

I just don't think it makes someone who is an ASN inferior because they go to a bridge program to become an NP.

Specializes in Postpartum.
I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

You know, I was going to just let it go and not post any more, but oh my gosh are you kidding?!?!?!

The acceptance rates at the direct entry programs I've applied to are in the teens. That's equivalent to getting into an Ivy league school out of high school. These programs are extremely difficult to get into and from what I've heard extremely intense academically and clinically. For goodness sake, I hope that after graduation, my RN colleagues will judge me on my clinical skills and ablities with patients, not the pathway to nursing I took. My word!

-Jess

I've worked shifts where a few of these transfer degree nurses have had their clinical shifts. Degrees in Business Administration, Literature, etc. They had no idea of how to do a bed bath, turn a post op patient, or remove drains. Had to "assist" their instructor in drain removal.

One actually told me that they didn't spend too much time on those things because that is what LPNs are for!!?? They all seemed to think that they would automatically become charge nurses or go onto NP courses.

The NPs I've worked with were wonderful nurses and all in their late 40s and early 50s. They had years of hands on experience to fall back on, often having worked nursing stations in Canada's far north.

Not everything can be learnt in a course, no matter how academically inclined you are. Life and work experience is crucial to an NP. They are often dealing with life and death situations.

You actually know what area that you want to specialize in, before you even work as a nurse? Glad that you are getting the two years of experience first, as many ideas will change.

Good luck to you................. :balloons:

Hi all. I don't know what area I want to specialize in. Only that I think I want to be a nurse. My mother's a med/surg nurse by the way. NP appeals to me because the Peace Corps hires very few RNs and having been a PC Volunteer, I've decided that I would like to gain the skills that would allow me to travel again and make a difference. That would be an option but I'm sure that those positions are extremely competitive, like Peace Corps itself. I would almost certainly need some experience with tropical medicine. I don't care so much about the money. I want to travel.

At almost 40 years of age and with a great deal more maturity and ability than most students right out of high school, I'm glad that there is a 2nd degree program that will allow me to get me RN in only 2 years. There is something to be said for accelerated programs in cases like mine. I certainly don't discount the value of experience but I also don't have 4 years to put into another BS degree.

This is a fantastic site and has been very helpful to me. I've been to the travel nursing forum, this NP forum, the volunteer and international nursing forum, and have learned something at each one. I'm becoming more convinced that nursing might be right for me. I'm starting pre-requisite classes for the 2nd degree program here in the fall. It will take me a couple of semesters to get accepted. It's been over 10 years since I took some of my biology classes. I trust my university's ability to train RNs in 2 years because on the NCLEX they pass over 90% of their students on the first try.

Thanks again everyone. Sounds like nursing attracts a very diverse group like any other profession. I value your opinions and I'll be watching!

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.
You know, I was going to just let it go and not post any more, but oh my gosh are you kidding?!?!?!

The acceptance rates at the direct entry programs I've applied to are in the teens. That's equivalent to getting into an Ivy league school out of high school. These programs are extremely difficult to get into and from what I've heard extremely intense academically and clinically. For goodness sake, I hope that after graduation, my RN colleagues will judge me on my clinical skills and ablities with patients, not the pathway to nursing I took. My word!

-Jess

Hi Jess,

Oh my goodness, I didn't read that whole BA in basket weaving the first time it posted. Good grief! Do people really think like this? This is the myth I was trying to debunk the first time around but, puh-lease :chuckle

The fact that we must have the pre-requisites complete, quanitfyable life experience, realistic expectations, high enough entrance scores and also succeed in our full-time 500 level curriculum must totally escape some of these posters, (the ones who think the masters entry programs are bogus).

Oy!

I wonder though how many of these are posters trying to defend and justify the legitimacy of their own graduate experience? Possibly they are under the influence that our NP program is going to be as theirs was?

One thing for certain though, our work ethic, manner and ability will speak volumes more to people and these are things that online anonymity will prevent our naysayers from ever knowing.

Whewie, grumpy naysayers, eh? :rolleyes: :chuckle BA in Basket weaving?

Gennaver

p.s. oh yeah, I was leaving this thread, (by the way, have you noticed the op's history? I took a look and the op had some slights against doctors too in the hostil md thread-smells like a troll to me)

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