NP education - a rant

Specialties NP

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I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience. Not a year of med surg, not a two year Master's, but some real NURSING experience. We are NURSE PRACTITIONERS, that's nurses with additional skill to allow the diagnosis and treatment of patient problems. It requires the inate skill that makes a nurse magnified to the 'nth degree. What makes good providers as NP's is the same characteristic that made them good nurses. It's experience.

I'm not on a high horse, just an NP that has seen too many "rammed through the system, get their money" NP's. This job is serious. It's serious on several levels. First and formost, you are being entrusted with the care of people that put their complete fath in you to make good decisions and provide quality care.

This IS different that being a nurse. How many times have you sat back as a nurse and berrated a provider about their choice of treatment plan or pushed for the provider to make a decision and get on with it. That all changes when you're the one with the RESPONSIBILITY for the decision. Yeah, it's an ear infection, yeah amox should do the job. Are you ready to commit fully to giving someones most honored item, their child, a drug that could kill them??? It's not cook book. It requires a base of knowledge, experience, reponsibility, and a committment to furthering your skills. It's a lifestyle!

The second group you matter to is the professional community. As NP's, we let the schools go freaking haywire in putting out as much crud as they wanted. They saw dollar signs and began pumping out graduates without regard to job markets or the economy of NP's. Boom, a flood of NP's. Fully half of them are transfer's in from "associated science's". Read sociology, psychology, earth sciences...all able to take their bachelors in science, convert to an RN in one year, and complete their master's in two more. These people may ultimately make good NP's, but not in three years!!!! What makes anyone think that this is the way to put NP's on the map??? What kind of fodder is given to the medical community, especially, to denounce the practice of NP's as being amateurish, poorly skilled, etc. It really opens us up to all kinds of flaming by other medical groups.

If you're an RN, thinking about becoming an NP, don't do it for the salary, chances are you're going to make more as an RN in the right setting. If NP is for you, go out and work, get a job, get several and work in areas like the ER(still, in my opinion, the best experience), community health care, critical care, etc. Then after a couple of years, think about going the MSN/NP route. You will be a better provider, it gives more credence to the profession, and ultimately the little kid with the OM will thank you for your skills.

I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.

Specializes in CTICU.
I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

:rotfl: Man, if I'd only know that an undergraduate degree in basketweaving existed I wouldn't have bothered with this Bachelors of Science in psychobiology nonsense. :chuckle

Right or wrong I'm wanting to get into a NP program ASAP. I honestly don't believe that having an ASN-MSN degree is a defect. I've been an LPN for four years and imagine I will get some experience as an RN while I would be in an NP program. I do understand the concern about the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am graduates who are taken in for the sake of filling up seats in schools, and I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program.

I just don't think it makes someone who is an ASN inferior because they go to a bridge program to become an NP.

Well....I have been reading this thread for a while and now feel compelled to add my comments...for what they are worth.

I have been an RN since 1982. I am currently finishing the clinical portion of an NP program while working full-time in an ED.

Over the years, I have been asked to act as a preceptor for new RNs and have gladly agreed to do so.

My current preceptee is in his late 50s, had a previous career as an MBA, entered a 2nd degree BSN program 15 months ago and just passed his State Board exam in December of 2004. He has aspirations of becoming an NP and is returning to school to begin an MSN-NP program this fall.

First of all, let me say that this guy is very caring and seems really dedicated to learning all there is to know about being an RN. Unfortunately, he seems to be under the assumption that he can do it all in a couple of months...And, the medical center seems to be operating with the same delusional thought process! They seem to think that all you need to do with a new RN is put them on the same schedule as someone with experience, and by some miracle of diffusion of knowledge and experience , and when the moon and stars are aligned correctly, POOF!...you have a produced a competent practitioner!

Am I getting old or was there a time when you needed to work for a year or so before applying for an ER position? ...but I digress.

I am sure this guy "imagines he will get some experience" before entering an NP program in the fall... but right now...

he cannot find his a-- with both hands!

...and I am pretty sure he will not be able to function independently as competent nurse in a busy ED in the three months "alotted" by the medical center ( An arbitrarily decided upon time frame with no real data to support it).

I am not saying that I am against 2nd degree programs. And, I do feel that there is a portion of the education process that needs to be expedited in order to attract new nurses.

I am saying however, that if we are going to look at ramming people through specially designed nursing programs as one of the solutions to the "nursing shortage", we need to take a serious look at orientation and preceptorship, and not let staffing issues dictate how we prepare new grads to be safe, competent nurses.

The debate about NP vs PA and 2nd degree progams vs nurses who chose to be nurses while they were still in the womb, will continue forever, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

However, I think the real core of the debate is, and will continue to be about clinical experience. And, instead of the "my degree can beat-up your degree" conversation, we should focus our energy on what we need to do to pick-up where the schools of nursing have left off and talk about what we, as a profession, need to do to fix the problem.

That's all I have for now.

I know someone who has a degree in psychology who brags that she can get into a BSN program and be finished in a year or so. I don't understand how this could be, as the required courses for nursing students are not the same as the ones for liberal arts students (especially in the sciences). Therefore, I have to think these schools are just taking them in to do a quickie job and turn them out to be RN's. I work with an LPN in home health who also works at a hospital and she told me there is an RN there who graduated with a degree in biology and went through the bridge program to a BSN and she can't find her you-know-what with both hands. She knows nothing about catheters, feeding tubes, she can't do ANYTHING.

I know someone who has a degree in psychology who brags that she can get into a BSN program and be finished in a year or so. I don't understand how this could be, as the required courses for nursing students are not the same as the ones for liberal arts students (especially in the sciences). Therefore, I have to think these schools are just taking them in to do a quickie job and turn them out to be RN's. I work with an LPN in home health who also works at a hospital and she told me there is an RN there who graduated with a degree in biology and went through the bridge program to a BSN and she can't find her you-know-what with both hands. She knows nothing about catheters, feeding tubes, she can't do ANYTHING.

You know, I just have to point out here that "not being able to find one's a** w/ both hands" could have as much to do with the individual as it does with his or her choice of undergraduate degree. And as a grad student in psych, I would also like to point out that there is a lot of biology, child and adult development studies, and research in my field - as well as a *LOT* of patient-contact - (though no basket-weaving :chuckle ) - qualities I would think would enhance, not obstuct, nursing education.

Since I began working in a hospital with graduates of accelearted programs (who by the way could find a**es, among other things with their eyes closed :rotfl: !) I have realized that you CAN become a great nurse, even if you have not had 20 years of nursing experience... it all depends on the indvidual.

Of course, experience is important - but some people are able to "catch up" faster than others, if nursing is really what they are meant to do. Maturity, work experience in general, and the ability to learn quickly seem to count for a lot. Witnessing this had inspired me to pursue nursing at this point in my life, and I honestly believe that I will make a better nurse now than I would have if I had gone into the field 15 years ago.

That's just my opinion, and I'm sticking to it :p

Specializes in Pediatrics.

..and, the medical center seems to be operating with the same delusional thought process! they seem to think that all you need to do with a new rn is put them on the same schedule as someone with experience, and by some miracle of diffusion of knowledge and experience , and when the moon and stars are aligned correctly, poof!...you have a produced a competent practitioner!

am i getting old or was there a time when you needed to work for a year or so before applying for an er position? ...but i digress.

...and i am pretty sure he will not be able to function independently as competent nurse in a busy ed in the three months "alotted" by the medical center ( an arbitrarily decided upon time frame with no real data to support it).

i am saying however, that if we are going to look at ramming people through specially designed nursing programs as one of the solutions to the "nursing shortage", we need to take a serious look at orientation and preceptorship, and not let staffing issues dictate how we prepare new grads to be safe, competent nurses.

the debate about np vs pa and 2nd degree progams vs nurses who chose to be nurses while they were still in the womb, will continue forever, and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

however, i think the real core of the debate is, and will continue to be about clinical experience. and, instead of the "my degree can beat-up your degree" conversation, we should focus our energy on what we need to do to pick-up where the schools of nursing have left off and talk about what we, as a profession, need to do to fix the problem.

that's all i have for now.

very good post. everyone is in such a hurry to get out of school. i certainly understand theat people want to get on with their lives, and start making money raise a family, whatever. but it's become a contest to see who can get through nursing school in the least amount of time. and while it may be good for some, it may not work for others, and the results can be dangerous in the field :uhoh21:

you bring up an excellent point, about orientations: while nursing school is getting shorter, so are the orientations. we have to hurry up and get these new nurses on the floors, and while they're on orientation, admin's attitude is "well you have an orientee on the floor, so you really don't need another nurse- you have another body on the floor". i understand that new nurses cannot be on orientation forever, but it's getting shorter and shorter, due to staffing constraints. and why is a brand new nurse getting the same orientation as an experienced nurse? the're supposed to be tailoring the orientation to the learners needs and experience, and i don't find this to be the case. and then not only are you expected to perform competently as a nurse, but are expected to handle the same load as the 10 yr veteran, or worse, float to another floor :eek: . i don't know, something is not right with that. but i digress...

"I do object to non-nursing people holding a bachelor's degree in basket weaving being admitted to an accelerated RN program. "

All right, as an artist I have to comment on the deriding of the "basket-weaving" degree. More than likely you are talking about a person with a degree in 3 dimensional art. Just so you know, it isn't a coast-through degree. You take all of the general education classes as any other bachelor's degree candidate and then you take of course, art courses. Some of them are very chemistry intense, some psychology-based, some history-based, some math-based. some technology based. It is a wide variety. You learn how to handle toxic materials, how to make sound structures, how to choose the appropriate material for the job. They all require problem solving skills and creativity. Something useful to nursing, no?

Now, to get into one of these accelerated RN programs, you also have to complete the same science pre-requisites that everyone else does -- biology, A & P, Microbiology, Chem, psych, soc, nutrition etc.

So don't make fun of us basket weavers! We are actually quite smart and well educated. The fact that we want to be nurses too just shows that.

I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience. Not a year of med surg, not a two year Master's, but some real NURSING experience. We are NURSE PRACTITIONERS, that's nurses with additional skill to allow the diagnosis and treatment of patient problems. It requires the inate skill that makes a nurse magnified to the 'nth degree. What makes good providers as NP's is the same characteristic that made them good nurses. It's experience.

I'm not on a high horse, just an NP that has seen too many "rammed through the system, get their money" NP's. This job is serious. It's serious on several levels. First and formost, you are being entrusted with the care of people that put their complete fath in you to make good decisions and provide quality care.

This IS different that being a nurse. How many times have you sat back as a nurse and berrated a provider about their choice of treatment plan or pushed for the provider to make a decision and get on with it. That all changes when you're the one with the RESPONSIBILITY for the decision. Yeah, it's an ear infection, yeah amox should do the job. Are you ready to commit fully to giving someones most honored item, their child, a drug that could kill them??? It's not cook book. It requires a base of knowledge, experience, reponsibility, and a committment to furthering your skills. It's a lifestyle!

The second group you matter to is the professional community. As NP's, we let the schools go freaking haywire in putting out as much crud as they wanted. They saw dollar signs and began pumping out graduates without regard to job markets or the economy of NP's. Boom, a flood of NP's. Fully half of them are transfer's in from "associated science's". Read sociology, psychology, earth sciences...all able to take their bachelors in science, convert to an RN in one year, and complete their master's in two more. These people may ultimately make good NP's, but not in three years!!!! What makes anyone think that this is the way to put NP's on the map??? What kind of fodder is given to the medical community, especially, to denounce the practice of NP's as being amateurish, poorly skilled, etc. It really opens us up to all kinds of flaming by other medical groups.

If you're an RN, thinking about becoming an NP, don't do it for the salary, chances are you're going to make more as an RN in the right setting. If NP is for you, go out and work, get a job, get several and work in areas like the ER(still, in my opinion, the best experience), community health care, critical care, etc. Then after a couple of years, think about going the MSN/NP route. You will be a better provider, it gives more credence to the profession, and ultimately the little kid with the OM will thank you for your skills.

I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.

You said exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. I teach at a university in the undergrad and NP program- even the curriculum committee wants a quick degree that will attract the students- no experience required. Of course the people making these decisions aren't nurse practitioners. I have spoken up a number of times, but to no avail. Glad to see it is going to a doctoral program someday, maybe this will discourage people going for a quick degree. This is not to say that I think that should be mandatory either, at least not for the experienced nurses.

I just don't see how someone with no nursing experience could learn this field in 3 semesters. Do you?

Specializes in Postpartum.
I just don't see how someone with no nursing experience could learn this field in 3 semesters. Do you?

I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

-Jessica

The accelerated bachelor's program I am accepted to starts in January and ends a year later in May. It is 17 months long, but you do not have the summer off, so you are going 4 semesters. You do take a few additional nursing courses to earn a BSN, rather than ADN, but those are more theory than clinical. You come in with all of of your general education and science coursework completed -- it is only the nursing portion that is accelerated. And that acceleration only comes due to the fact you do not have the summer off So it really isn't a short-cut. It has taken 4 + years to prep for entry to the nursing program. For non-science majors, it is 4 years plus at least 1 more to get the science work done.

As far as Direct Entry Master's programs in my area, the RN portion is set-up in the same way. You don't get a BSN, but do sit for the NCLEX at the end of the first 16 months. The MSN portion at one school begins after you work 9 months to a year as an RN. Then you return for alternating classroom and full-time coop experiences. The other programs encourage the MSN portion to be completed part-time while working. It doesn't have to be though.

I didn't choose the MSN route due to the fact that you must choose your specialization when you apply, and I really want to work the floors before I make that decision. My leaning is towards primary care, but I am also very interested in anesthesia. For me, the better option is to get my RN, rather than NP first.

I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

-Jessica

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.
I'm confused. At local community colleges anyone can get an RN in 4 semesters- 2 years of full time study. My understanding is that is pretty much standard and has been for years. For someone with a bachelor's degree who has already fulfilled some of the general requirements (English comp, algebra, psych. etc) It should be totally "do-able" to finish an ADN in three semesters- since you likely would only be taking the nursing classes and clinicals.

If you are talking about getting a master's degree in three semesters- I don't know any programs direct entry or otherwise that grant an MSN in that amount of time. The standard for a non thesis masters degree is usually two academic years- or four semesters. If you add in summer terms it may be possible to finish the degree in under two academic years- but I think it's likely credit-wise it would be closer to the standard 4 semesters.

Getting an RN and a master's degree for someone who has no nursing experience takes a heck of a lot longer that this- so I guess I don't really know what you are referring to.

-Jessica

Jess,

Thanks for clarifying this. Yeah, a lot of the programs that I am looking at do not GRANT the msn in the full time 1.5 years, that is only the RN certificate portion. Yeah, what is so crazy about that? I mean, in order for me to COMPLETE my ADN all I have left is six classes, (spread over four semesters). Yet, to complete my RN graduate certificate I have 12 classes full time spread over four semesters.

So, exactly where is the quickie portion?? No where I think, merely semantics. It seems like folks who do not already possess the four year degree seem to think that those of us who have completed this need to go back to the ADN to be legitimate.

Which, if I do not get accepted into this other program I will. I think the six classes in the same time frame versus the 12, (which will be the difference between me earnign an Associates verus a graduate certificate) might be actually a little easier, less intense for certain.

Also, as a degree that is below my currently earned one I will NOT be elidgible for any student loans or grants or anything yet, as a grad student, (because it post bacc, I would be able to apply for aid and loans.)

Misinformation and what not.

To the poster who is a professor at a non-nursing major graduate entry program...which area are you at? Do you really feel that there are people graduating from your program and passing the NCLEX and all without being able nurses?

Gennaver

Do NP schools really accept students who are not already an RN. My school required, RN, BSN and one year experience. Most of us are older experienced folks.

The NP accelerated programs are for people who already have their bachelor degrees in another field. The first year is very intensive and they get a RN degree. Then the next 2 years is for the master's NP portion. Most of these applicants are older students with life experience, either in a paid position in the health care field or in a volunteer capacity.

If you were to go into a straight master's program, yes, you would need a RN degree, preferably a BSN degree. I don't know about the 1 year experience, but it sounds like some programs to favor master's candidates who do have the year experience as a RN vs. someone who does not.

I hope that straightens out the confusion. The RN is the cornerstone for any advanced practice degree for an NP.

Specializes in Ortho, Med surg and L&D.
I came to the site today and saw lot's of posts of wonderfully excited people interested in becoming NP's. The vast majority of the tones of education were: "I have the opportunity to become and NP through an advanced MSN program" or "I'm sales person at Target with a Bachelors in sociology, and with just one year of school I can become an RN then get my NP degree!!!"

Sorry about this but....Being a nurse practitioner is more than just getting the degree. The job requires experience.

I know a rant, but it makes me nuts to think that being an NP is anything less than the greatest honor innursing you can become.

Hi again catskill RN,

Apparently there are some endorsements and official recommendations on these graduate entry programs by the American Association of Colleges of Nurses.

If you care to take a look:

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/Publications/issues/Aug02.htm

Thanks again for sharing how misguided some perceptions are about these programs!!

Gennaver

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