Medical assistants and LPNs

Nurses LPN/LVN

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shelly304

383 Posts

They are CMA's. We have one in our clinic and I know that there are several working on the "floor" through the hosp. Doing the job of PCTs.

A lot more talk going on thru the hosp. now that staff is finding out they are not licensed but certified. MAs have never been utilized here before. I don't know that much except for the research I have been doing on the net and allnurses!

pagandeva2000, LPN

7,984 Posts

Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.

CNAs are not licensed, either. And most PCTs that work in my hospital were clerks, but when the wave of multitasking came about, most of the clerks had to either become PCT/PCAs or risk being re-deployed to other departments unknown or face the threat of lay offs. They were trained on the job by the nursing department, who initiated a PCA program and they are considered to be unlicensed assistive personnel (UAP). The only disadvantage of this is that because they are not certified like the CNAs, they were a bit more limited if they wanted to make a job change, unless they took an outside course to become a CNA and take the certification exam.

softstorms

291 Posts

After talking with a few co-workers.......we all agree. Each phase has a purpose,but what we found out was this......With each stage you learn more skills..and! with each stage you learn more about ...WHY.. you use those skills. If you are going to go to school for many years and spend your time and most of you future income on becoming a Dr. Then go for it. If you are going to spend time and money to get your R.N. then go for it. LPN? Yep, 2 years and had to pay for it on my own. With every stage comes a price of not only money, but responsibility. Did I ever think I would have to carry insurance in case I was sued? nope. But I did and I was. I was the LPN "in charge".

So, is a MA the same as a LPN? or a LPN the same as an RN. NOPE!

It is all about what YOUR scope of pratice is.

Kidaroo102

9 Posts

Specializes in Emergency/Trauma/Med-Surg.

http://www.aama-ntl.org/resources/library/Role-delineation-2003.pdf

This might help it is a study based on nation wide data.

NursKris82

278 Posts

Would a MA respond to this post. It is factual, logical and true- no bias or emotion. Nursing is not just about the "doing", it's about the thinking behind it. That's why nursing school is set up the way it is, to teach you how to think like a nurse.

There is a difference in training. LPNs are trained in 4 domains of patient care; med-surg, psychiatry, women's health and pediatrics. Also, we are taught of the nursing process of Assessment (or data gathering for the LPN), Diagnosis (nursing diagnosis), Planning, Implementation and Evaluation. In most states, it is very true that the Medical Assistant works under the license of the physician, but if there is a mistake, the physician is usually held to be more liable whereas a nurse is liable for herself under the Board of Nursing. It seems that the MA position is not as regulated, because some places have on the job training, others have the education, but not the certification/registration and some have a 2 year program while others have a shorter one.

I am also not saying that one is better than the other. What I am saying is that one is licensed, thus is held more liable and responsible than the other. Yes, they do similar tasks, and if someone (meaning the physician) is going to vouch for their additional skills, then, sure, they can perform them. And, I can see how, if an MA is employed at a place where more complicated tasks are performed, that they are able to do more than an LPN. But, it seems to me that if there is a mistake, then, the patient can sue the physician for not delegating a qualified person who is performing the skill properly, but if it is a nurse, then, that nurse can be held legally liable and responsible for her own actions based on the scope of practice. I took a medical assisting course many years ago, and after I took the LPN course, I really saw that it was apples and oranges in the way that we were taught.

Some LPNs say the same thing about RNs..."We do the same thing that they do...we are nurses, too (that is true, we are)"...I already know that we don't. We have skills that run parallel to the RN, for sure. However, they have even more liability and accountablility than we do. Again, this does not say that there are not shotty MAs, LPNs and RNs out there. It is the person that makes the job, not the level of education. However, I see clear differences between how all of these programs teach, and the level of accountability rises with each elevation of title.

asoonernurse

246 Posts

Specializes in LTC.

Then, according to your state's (Alaska) OWN rules, you are breaking the law.

Just my :twocents:, here. But SHOULD you kill a patient, or disable them for life, etc., administering narcotics without a license, watch how fast that physician you speak of abandons you to the wolves.

Once this happens, and if you know the rules of medication administration (i.e. it's not IF its gonna happen, it's WHEN its gonna happen), and the public gets wind of it (what!? they're NOT nurses and they're giving us medications!) then the rules will change on you mighty fast.

Regards,

Michael

I am not saying that one is better than the other I am simply stating that CMA's with a physician that trains them can do MORE than and LPN in some states, specifically Alaska. I have administered narcotics IV, per a doctors order and according to the state nursing board here a LPN can't do that. And we can administer medications as well as dispense them under the physicians order in Alaska. It does vary from state to state, but here we are allowed to by law.:twocents:

asoonernurse

246 Posts

Specializes in LTC.

I'm shocked that physicians are okay with this, myself. I'd love to get a doc's opinion of this one (where is TiredMD when you need him!)

I have a feeling that they just can't be bothered to weigh in on this subject, but as I said in the previous posting, you can be absolutely certain that the doc is going to bail on you the MINUTE you make a medication mistake that puts his or her license in jeopardy.

Needless to say, I would think that over the coming years, states (including Alaska) will tighten up on what a CMA can and cannot do. I don't see their scope of practice broadening (nurses would freak, and when nurses freak, doctors take note, and the chain reaction always reaches the various governing boards.)

Regards,

Michael

There is a common misconception that MA's work under the nurses.....we do not......we work under the practioner....the actions of the CMA are those of the practioner written order so the legality is covered under their liscense when acting on the practioners wishes. Now if an MA does something without the direction of the practioner, then the MA is on their own so to speak. In the event the provider is a nurse practioner, then the sponser of the NP is the liscense in which we fall under....this is in Alaska. I am not sure about other states. There is malpractice insurance available to MA's as well.

HeartsOpenWide, RN

1 Article; 2,889 Posts

Specializes in Ante-Intra-Postpartum, Post Gyne.
Then, according to your state's (Alaska) OWN rules, you are breaking the law.

Just my :twocents:, here. But SHOULD you kill a patient, or disable them for life, etc., administering narcotics without a license, watch how fast that physician you speak of abandons you to the wolves.

Once this happens, and if you know the rules of medication administration (i.e. it's not IF its gonna happen, it's WHEN its gonna happen), and the public gets wind of it (what!? they're NOT nurses and they're giving us medications!) then the rules will change on you mighty fast.

Regards,

Michael

Before nursing school I was a CMA in California and we were allowed to administer narcotics under the directions of a physician, I have injections for Demerol and stadol for migraine patients all the time. It was IM of course, we can't do any I.V. We couldn't give epinephrine though.

Are medical assistants allowed to administer injections of scheduled drugs?

If after receiving the appropriate training as indicated in Item 1, medical assistants are allowed to administer injections of scheduled drugs only if the dosage is verified and the injection is intramuscular, intradermal or subcutaneous. The supervising physician or podiatrist must be on the premises as required in section 2069 of the Business and Professions Code, except as provided in subdivision (a) of that section. However, this does not include the administration of any anesthetic agent.

Here is a good general of what an MA can or cant do

http://www.medicalassistant.net/responsibilities.htm#medical_assistant_can_i_do_that_

Kidaroo102

9 Posts

Specializes in Emergency/Trauma/Med-Surg.
Then, according to your state's (Alaska) OWN rules, you are breaking the law.

Just my :twocents:, here. But SHOULD you kill a patient, or disable them for life, etc., administering narcotics without a license, watch how fast that physician you speak of abandons you to the wolves.

Once this happens, and if you know the rules of medication administration (i.e. it's not IF its gonna happen, it's WHEN its gonna happen), and the public gets wind of it (what!? they're NOT nurses and they're giving us medications!) then the rules will change on you mighty fast.

Regards,

Michael

Currently Alaska has no laws about "unliscensed" personel administering narcotics. It does how ever have rules about who can deligate the order. A nurse can not deligate this to us, but a physician can.

asoonernurse

246 Posts

Specializes in LTC.

As I am in California, I cannot dispute this.

Nevertheless, you are not a nurse, nor do you have the breadth of knowledge OR skills to be able to equate yourself to one.

You will note that your "rules" state "delegated and SUPERVISED by". Nurses do not need to be supervised by physicians. CMAs do. Simple as that.

Regards,

Michael

Currently Alaska has no laws about "unliscensed" personel administering narcotics. It does how ever have rules about who can deligate the order. A nurse can not deligate this to us, but a physician can.

Kidaroo102

9 Posts

Specializes in Emergency/Trauma/Med-Surg.
Before nursing school I was a CMA in California and we were allowed to administer narcotics under the directions of a physician, I have injections for Demerol and stadol for migraine patients all the time. It was IM of course, we can't do any I.V. We couldn't give epinephrine though.

Here is a good general of what an MA can or cant do

http://www.medicalassistant.net/responsibilities.htm#medical_assistant_can_i_do_that_

Well this website was written by a webdesigner and is not accurate for all 50 States. Before reponding, I did check the AK statutes and Administrative Code to verify....Under the direction of a physician we can insert urinary catheters, and start, apply tubing, and administer medication with physicians orders. It simply states that a LNP, RN, or an LPN, LVN, can not supervise or delegate such tasks to us. A physician however can. Alaska is different from many states....more than I realized.

I would like to comment that with everything this conversation has brought to light...I do agree that a CMA is by no means an RN. CMA's and LVN, LPN's are similiar and their roles cross, but there are some differences as well. I also agree that Medical Assisting needs to be organized across the nation considering that we hold national certification if one is chosen to be persued. I can say for a fact that there are none of the three month $300 MA programs here in AK. Currently there are 3 programs for CMA's and they are run by ACIS accredidated Colleges. All three programs have certificates at the completion of the program and Certification for those programs is manditory through the NCCT. The three schools here are University of Alaska Anchorage, Career Academy, and Charter College.

I respect all of you for your comments and your knowledge. It has forced me to take the knowledge I have been working under into action to verify for myself what I am allowed to do legally in my state and what I am not allowed to do. THANK YOU ALL FOR THAT! Information is always a benefit to those that seek it and I am sure that the forum owners had this in mind when they created this community. All of you in the health care field whatever medium your education provides you do what you do well.

:yeah::twocents:

HeartsOpenWide, RN

1 Article; 2,889 Posts

Specializes in Ante-Intra-Postpartum, Post Gyne.
Well this website was written by a webdesigner and is not accurate for all 50 States. :

Thats why I said it was a general site. The quote I put however was from this site:

http://www.medbd.ca.gov/allied/medical_assistants.html

I am only a Senior nursing student in a BSN program and even though I use to be a "lowly" CMA myself, I still get mad when a CMA make comments like "I can do everything a nurse can" or "I am practically a nurse but I just don't get paid the same" when I visit other forums. California is very good at spelling out what a CMA can or can do...by law (see my link) I wish other states would follow suit.

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