Question about Pre-Reqs. and Nursing Shortage

sierranic · Jan 6, 2004

I was previously working on an AA degree in Biology, so I have alot of my math and science classes out of the way. I took some of the classes that were needed for the ADN degree but were non-nursing (meaning I didn't have to be in the nursing program to take them). They were A&P, Sociology, Human Growth & Development and Interpersonal Communication. English 101 was req as well but I had that done already. I don't recall seeing any math classes req, however I'm working on Calc I this semester so if there were I'm sure I'd be fine. Also this semester I'm doing Micro and A&P II, there is only one other class that I need to do that is non-nursing and I'll have everything out of the way, it's called career stratagies?? Thinking this may be a summer class I might do, I'm hoping to get into the program starting in Fall so the only thing I will need to do is the nursing core classes (take a load off my shoulders, some of these non-nursing classes can be rough)

As soon as I get my ADN I'm going to go back for my BSN, and I know that alot of the other classes that I have taken will be applied toward the pre or co-req's needed for that. So again this will lessen my load in the future as well. Anything that I can do to prevent myself from getting burnt out I will try, so if it takes staying in school 5-6 years rather then 3-4 for my BSN that's what I'll do.

Good luck with what you choose to do!!

LilRedRN1973 · Jan 6, 2004

I just can't help but wonder why more Nursing Schools aren't admitting more students per year or why they aren't building more Nursing Schools to help fill the need.

Part of the problem is they can have all the nursing schools in the world, but with nobody to teach them, it's pointless. They need more nursing educators. For example, our program only accepts 40 students. They have to maintain a ratio of 8 students to 1 instructor. They have the money to hire another instructor, which would increase our program to 48, but there is nobody to hire!

Most of the courses in the Nursing Program are directly related to Nursing, so I'm just wondering what types of courses the rest of you are taking before starting the actual Program?

Before I applied, I took English 101, 102, Psychology 101, Chemistry 220, Sociology 101, Nutrition 223 (this will be a requirement for my BSN, not the current ADN program I'm in now), History 111, Anatomy and Physiology I and II, and Math 120. Those were all either pre-requisites or co-requisites for the ADN program (with the exception of the NUTR 223). The only thing I have left is Microbiology and they are offering it as a 3 week course this summer. After that, I will be done with all classes that are non-nursing.

Nurse2bSandy · Jan 6, 2004

I'm in a BSN program and started basically from scratch 2 1/2 years ago. I needed many credits not related to nursing and then the nursing bases... english, advanced writing, literature, anthropology, psych, developmental psych, abnormal psych, world history 1&2, college algebra, math 100, microbiology, A & P 1&2, chem and biochem, nutrition, stats... probably more that I can't think of now.

It was so nice to finally start into my core nursing classes last semester!

Sarah Kat · Jan 6, 2004

Keep in mind that not all who apply should get in. Nursing requires math skills that not everyone possesses. It also requires critical thinking skills that I know not everyone possesses. Many people have the idea that nursing is an easy field and anyone can do it. It's just not true.

I think it is good that schools make their students demonstrate their aptitude and desire to get in the program.

Good luck with your application!

CarVsTree · Jan 6, 2004

Did you speak with an admissions counselor? The more of the pre-reqs you have completed the better chance you have of getting in especially for ADN.

Pre-reqs that are generally required by all nursing programs are:

Chemistry (1 semester usually)

A&P I&II

Microbiology

Intro. to Psych

Developmental Psych

Sociology elective

and some other courses. They aren't all pre-reqs but since its so competitive to get in, they really are needed before applying.

HTH.

wonderbee, BSN, RN · Jan 6, 2004

Yes, what you say is true about importing nurses from other countries. According to an article I just read, California, for instance, has recently passed a law that states a nurse/patient ratio cannot exceed 1:6. Hospitals are struggling to fill the demand and rather than close units, they'll import. There has been an unfortunate turn and burn mentality among nursing administration that has sent many qualified nurses into other careers but changes are in the works as the shortage closes otherwise profitable hospital units. Let's face it... you can't run a hospital without staff nurses.

There was a general college entrance test I had to take to show proficiency in basic algebra and to prove that I was literate. That and passing a drug calculation test were the only math requirements for my program.

Admission to the nursing core program is based on a point system. Completing courses contributes to the points. If not the intention, generally the ones who get in are the ones who have completed the non-nursing courses. It was a quick year for me and now that it's done, I'm glad I got those courses out of the way. Now I can fully concentrate on my nursing studies.

And as someone so bravely and wisely said earlier, not everyone should get into nursing school. It would scare me to know that some of my classmates ever make it in. My CC admits 220 students a year out something like 700 applicants. The numbers may be discouraging but it really raises the standards.

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 6, 2004

As a previous poster said, it's not as easy as one might think to open new schools and/or expand existing ones. Here are a few of the reasons:

Nursing education is expensive for a school to provide -- more expensive than some majors. Think about it. In some majors, an instructor can teach a lecture class to a couple hundred students (e.g. freshman English, sociology, etc.), many of whom are not even majors in that department. The tuition that all those students pay not only pays for the instructor, but also supplies the department with income to help finance the smaller seminars that majors in that department must also take. In nursing, the clinical courses require a student/faculty ratio of no greater than 10:1 -- too few to pay the salary of the instructor plus other necessary expenses.

In some departments, science labs, etc. get funding through research grants and from alumni who donate significant money. Nurses have not had a rich research tradition and there are NOT a lot of nursing alumni out there donating money to help out. State governments are strapped for cash as the voters only vote for tax cuts -- NOT for increased government spending. Corporations have been hit hard by the weak economy and are not jumping in to save the day for nursing except for a few isolated cases.

Making things more complicated and financially difficult for the schools is the fact that nursing salaries in the hospital arena are higher than they are for lower-level instructors in colleges. So ... those nurses who might make good nursing faculty are not very temted to do it. I myself have a PhD in nusing, but work for a hospital, not a school, for a variety of complicated reasons -- too many and too complex to go into here. I work for a hospital in a staff development and administrative capacity.

Taking it even further ... because nursing schools can not pay beginning instructors a salary competitive with what hospitals pay (because of the taxpayers' refusal to increase funding to the schools), the schools have to try to entice potential faculty members into working for them by allowing them to work only at the most popular times (no weekends, nights, etc.). That means that they all want to do their clinical rotations at the same time -- Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday mornings (or whatever else is most popular in their area). The available clinical facilities get filled up with students at those popular times -- and that's it, no more students can be admitted to the program.

At my hospital (where I schedule and facilitate the clinical rotations of the nursing schools), I hear the faculty complain over and over again how we don't have enough slots available for students. And they hear me say over and over again that we have plenty of unused slots: they are just not on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday mornings. We have nobody here on Saturdays, Sundays, or Mondays -- and very few people here during the afternoons or on Fridays -- and whole weeks when no one is here because most of the schools start at the same time, take breaks at the same time, etc. There is little variabililty and/or flexibility in the school calendars. The school that will be successful in getting more clinical slots will be the school that is flexible with its clinical rotation schedule so they can use more of the calendar for at least some of its learning experiences and not just the prime time weekday morning hours in the prime school months. But to hire faculty to teach those unpopular hours would take more money ... and the taxpayers don't want to pay it.

So ... from someone in the trenches of the whole nursing shortage, faculty shortage, etc. business. The reason we are having trouble expanding nursing programs is that society does not recognize the need to pay for it and unitversity officials don't yet see the connection between their rigid adherence to traditional ways of doing things and the shortage.

Good luck with school and your career,

llg

sagelola · Jan 6, 2004

Where I live there are some differences in what is required for the ADN and the BSN programs as far as pre-reqs. I don't know exactly because I was never interested in the ADN. I think that for the BSN we need to have stats and they don't...and maybe nutrition? Like I said, I don't know them all.

You want to talk about people getting in a program that should not? The CC here goes by a lottery system (another reason I chose not to do the ADN...why work my butt off getting good grades just to not have my number pulled?). So, as long as you are passing your classes you have a chance to get in. The university goes by your gpa in the 9 pre-req courses, which may be a better indicator.

The thing that puzzles me is that we have the best of the best in our program, and still there are some who are struggling.

mitchsmom · Jan 6, 2004

I am in Florida where there are state mandated prereqs that I'm pretty sure apply to ALL 2 year RN programs and/or BSN programs (of course the BSN program would require the other general education things like English, etc. in addition to the state mandated prerequisites). Some programs will let you work on them after you start the nursing program (mine does not - you have to have them all done beforehand). Here they are:

Human Anatomy & Physiology I,

Human Anatomy & Physiology II,

Comprehensive College General Chemistry,

Human Growth & Development Across the Life span,

Human Nutrition,

Microbiology with lab,

General Psychology,

Statistics,

Introduction to Sociology

In my nursing school, *I* have to pay EXTRA fees for the expenses incurred by the nursing program (as opposed to the other less costly programs at the school).

My husband works in and out of different hospitals, he said one local one has a whole floor that they call "Little Manila" because the entire floor is staffed with imported nurses from the Philippines.

nursepearl · Jan 6, 2004

Entrance into my ADN program requires...

English 100, College math, A&P, Microbio., Pharm, Growth and Dev., Speech 100, and thats all i Can think of right now.

For the BSN in my area you have to take statistics and Chem. those are the only differences.

As far as nurse educators...there is are two hospitals in my area that are currently paying for two of our teachers to teach for two years. They probably thought of this because a lot of our graduates go to those two hospitals when they graduate.

Pearl

colleen10 · Jan 6, 2004

I am in a 2 year CC ASN program. I allready have a degree so many of my credits transferred but I still spent a year getting pre-req's. and co-req's. out of the way. I went part-time so if I pushed myself I probably could have gotten it all out of the way within a semester or two rather than three (fall, spring and summer).

My school requires Chem 1, Bio 1, Algebra 1, Psych 1, and English 1 to be completed before you can even apply to the nursing program. Then, for co-req's which can be taken while you take your nursing clinical are A&P 1 and 2, Micro-biology, Psych 2 (Human Growth and Development), Humanities (3 credits).

I know my school has a tough time finding clinical instructors, so this limits the number of students they can accept. In fact, they are still searching for clinical instructors and school starts next week.

I know my school would accept more students if they more people willing to be clinical instructors. My school currently has about 130 1st year students that have made it to second semester. We run about 7-8 students per instructor.