Not-for-profit vs for-profit colleges...did this make a difference?

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Jun 4, 2011

I should probably be more specific...I would like to hear from those that have earned degrees from ACCREDITED for-profit institutions.

Summers_Off · Jun 4, 2011

I worked in human resources for a while, although not in the healthcare industry. Resumes with degrees from for-profit colleges (University of Phoenix, Devry, Kaplan, Walden, ITT Tech, Art Institute, Capella, Grand Canyon, etc.) went right into the trash. Even if the undergraduate degree was from a state U or a private-non-profit and then they had a Master's or MBA from Phoenix or Kaplan, it was trashed.

This is SO true! I had to happen to me (but not for nursing). I was at a recruiting event and the recruiter was standing behind a table holding her leather portfolio. We chatted for a minute... "you have an engineering degree and an MBA/Project Mgmt degree. That's just the kind of background we are looking for!" She seemed genuinely interested. I handed her my resume and she said "Okay, *smiling* you went to Well Respected University for undergrad... *face falling* and DeVry." The conversation stopped abruptly with the standard PC version of "don't call us, we'll call you" and she turned and put my resume in a BOX on the table behind her while I was still standing there. It wasn't an actual trash can (I probably would have an assault charge if she was that blatant LOL), but it was an old copy paper box that most cube dwellers use for a recycling bin. It was clear that the resumes going in the portfolio and the resumes in the box had very different destinations. I will NEVER EVER EVER in LIFE go to a school like that or encourage anyone else too. I am attending a private nursing school that is affiliated with the largest hospital system in my area (b/c the hospital is paying for most of it WOOT WOOT) and for my BSN and higher I am ONLY considering state schools. A) because that will be on my dime and B) I don't even want to risk a change in the reputation of any other school and I think state schools are my best bet in maintain credibility.

I disagree with 33762FL generalizing that it shows poor judgment. I went there a decade ago (Good Lord that makes me feel OLD) and back then it was much more difficult to find evening programs at traditional schools. I had to work and DeVry was most convenient for working professionals. Also, at that time I think DeVry had a better reputation. It was NOT a diploma mill by any means. They didn't even offer online classes at that time. I was in a classroom just like anyone else. I was taking real tests and doing real projects. Do I think I received the same education as a Harvad MBA? Hail no :)! Did I receive an education comparable to a state school business school graduate? I believe so. Also, at that time not nearly as much was known about accreditation. I did know enough to ask, they said yes, and I checked it. Did I know there were fifty eleven types of accreditation and which ones weren't worth the paper they were written on? No. Should I have? I don't know. Maybe. Personally, I think accreditation is about as much of a racket as these diploma mill schools.

FWIW, I did not pay DeVry a dime (not even for books) as it was all covered by my company's tuition reimbursement. I paid about as much for my Well Respected University degree though and most people wouldn't call that "poor judgment". But perception is everything. :twocents:

33762FL · Jun 5, 2011

Threw them in the trash, based on what?

Based on the fact that they received degrees from what are considered "online degree mills" instead of from real schools.

people that graduate with $100K in loans when they won't even be making that in a year so they can avoid waiting lists and go to out-of-state or private schools...have shown worse judgment

I agree completely, but unless HR runs credit check on an applicants they would never know how much debt a candidate has, if any. Also, credit checks often don't happen until the candidate is called in for an interview and the company is seriously considering a hire. The for-profit candidate resumes would be trashed before they even get a call for a first interview.

AJPV · Jun 5, 2011

It is FAR better to do your homework ahead of time and pick a school that will always be respected throughout your career & education path. Another thing to consider... The future of many of these for-profit schools is uncertain at best. The federal gov't is cracking down on the abusive schools by requiring the following:

...at least 35 percent of former students must be repaying their loans and the estimated annual loan payment of graduates must not exceed 30 percent of their discretionary income or 12 percent of their total earnings.

There is a lot of controversy over these requirements and specifics of the rules may eventually change. But one thing is sure: the public and the gov't is fed up with for-profit "schools" that are abusing taxpayers and trusting students. It's not a good time to be investing in these types of schools with your tuition dollars.

Moogie · Jun 5, 2011

I have actually looked at EVERY Nurse Educator program in my state...yes, pulled up every single one of them. There are things that I need to "fit"...I need a distance education program and I do not wish to take the GRE's because I have had a 15 year gap in my education...otherwise, I would take it.

Many MSN programs do not require the GRE. Educational research indicates that the GRE is not predictive of graduate school success so many programs have dropped that requirement. I had to take it for admission to my PhD program (starting that in the fall) and, yes, it was brutal. It's been well over 25 years since I finished my BSN and you can guess when I graduated from high school. This is an old thread but the information here is still accurate: https://allnurses.com/post-graduate-nursing/list-your-school-349356.html

I want an academically based Nurse Educator program...not clinically based. That is also, hard to find.

I'm sorry but I'm not following you here. Are you saying that you are more interested in the academic nurse educator role than in a clinical education/staff development role? Or are you looking for a program in which you don't have to do clinicals?

My master's program focused a bit more on the academic nurse educator role than on staff development, but the principles of adult learning are the same regardless of the setting. We did one teaching practicum in the setting of our choice (academic or staff development) and most of us chose an academic setting. Some programs require two practicums---one in a school of nursing and the other in a staff development setting. In my program we did 90 hours of the teaching practicum but most of us put many more hours into it.

In terms of clinicals, the students in my program did a one-week health assessment intensive on campus. This requirement was waived for the NE students; however, everyone was expected to practice health assessment skills on their own. (IMHO, this was the weakest part of my program, but I digress.) Some courses had clinical components; for example, health promotion (which was an elective for the NE students) had a community health clinical component but students did this independently in their own communities. We worked on our own time and set our own schedules so the clinical component was very flexible.

So, by the time you get to my list...that nixes out the programs in my state, then when you move to out-of-state distance based programs, then you get into out-of-state tuition...so that should allow me to pick and choose.

Many distance-based programs at brick-and-mortar schools charge in-state tuition for online students. My school did. There were a few additional fees for online students but they were reasonable.

All of the states in my immediate geographical area have up to $20,000 loan forgiveness if you sign a contract to teach nursing school...so that is how I plan to pay part of my loans off, which will take care of all but a small portion of them (I am paying for most of it myself)...so where is the bad judgement in that?

Be careful with this. Loan forgiveness was offered at my school but the catch was that one had to commit to teaching in that state for a certain amount of time. Considering that there aren't many faculty opportunities in the state in which I went to school, it wasn't a good deal.

Does the hospital at which you work offer tuition reimbursement? Many institutions have cut or eliminated this benefit and some require that one works there for a certain amount of time after graduation. Still, it's worth exploring.

Course STRUCTURE also plays a role...one of the programs that I am looking at only requires me to take ONE course at a time...which allows me to focus fully on it and do well...that makes it manageable when I have to work full time along with two children.

Taking one course per semester was an option at my school. Several people did that because of job and family obligations. I didn't. I took the program full-time and didn't work. My kids were both in college. At any rate, the semesters were a little over four months long and the summer session was three months long. We had about a month off total, including spring break and the break between fall and spring semesters. Some of the NE courses were available only in the summer, so there wasn't too much time for fun and family.

To answer your question about non-profit vs. for-profit schools, several of my friends who are nurse educators have gone to for-profit schools and have been happy. They have felt that the education they received was good and it has not hurt them in their careers. On the other hand, there are some who have regretted their choice and found it difficult to find employment. I believe that what a person puts into his/her education is what he/she gets out of it but, realistically speaking, some employers do frown on for-profit schools.

The one thing that makes me uncomfortable about a for-profit school is that you can't just look up the curriculum online. You have to speak to a recruiter. You can go to the website of any brick-and-mortar school to look up the curriculum, admission requirements, deadlines, and tracks offered.

I also noted that one for-profit school claimed on its website to be ranked Number One by US News and World Report, only to see in the small print that the school was ranked first not in quality or academic rigor but in enrollment numbers. That seems a tad misleading to me. Just because a gazillion people eat at McDonald's doesn't mean their burgers are the best in town.

One last thing regarding grad school: prepare to do a lot of group work. My program did a ton of group work every semester; one semester I had four groups going on at once. When doing a distance education program, you may find that some of your group members are in different time zones. Some may not have similar schedules and others may simply not have the same work ethic. In the end, I thought the group work was enjoyable and a great way to learn but it was very stressful at times. Friends who go to for-profit schools say that they also have plenty of group work. I think it's unavoidable at the master's level.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2011

This thread is full of good information.

jmqphd · Jun 5, 2011

Let me be a bit of a contrarian here:

My comments regard the ADN degree. We are in one of those states with severe budget short-falls. As a result of cutbacks, a lot of experienced nursing faculty were laid off. Waiting lists for students to be admitted to nursing schools have grown exponentially.

So here comes a for-profit nursing school that builds a beautiful facility and scarfs up some excellent faculty members and a program director with two (clinical AND administrative) MSN's. By working our butts off, we have passed ACICS (we are a national program, we have national accreditation) and passed NLNAC. Not just passed, but were given kudos and compliments by the examiners. Though a new school, we have graduated two classes and we have a 100% NCLEX pass rate. Our first group were immediately employed (in their first choice of positions) and so far 75% of our second group are.

The examiners from the State Board visited our facility with the examiners from NLNAC. They didn't say much, mainly watched and listened. BUT, when we got their comments, we found them to be snotty, rude, elitist and frankly untrue. The examiner twisted and distorted comments and answers to questions the NLNAC examiners had asked faculty members. She also denigrated our "corporate structure". The State Board is schizophrenic about us, because other members have raved... saying they've never seen a program go from zero to functioning at a high level like we have.

Let me say that what you've been reading in the paper about the Obama Department of Education and their "battle" with for-profit schools is deeper than you know. BEFORE the word came out that rules were about to change, stocks in these companies got short sold and speculators with inside information made a killing. There was obvious influence peddling and insider trading. The inspector general is are looking into it, and has issued several reports. Though I am dubious anyone will be punished.

As far as graduate education, our school employs several who have MSN's from the University of Pheonix. They are excellent team members and skilled educators.

I've been on the inside of graduate (NP) education at a famous, elite, Southern university with a top tier medical center. We were under pressure to pass weak students because the program wanted their tuition money. They would also say anything and do anything to weedle endowments from alumni (or mega-millionaire charitable fund managers). In my view, a recruiter who sh*t cans resumes of folks for the wrong university connections is not looking at the person. They are clearly looking for the reflected glow from some pedigree patina.

There is a higher education bubble in this country. Eventually someone is going to notice that top tier universities are putting out students with debt they can never pay, students who are working in jobs that don't require college degrees, and graduating people with economically useless majors. This doesn't count the hundreds of thousands of young people who languish for 6 years on borrowed educational funds only to bomb out of a university to which they should never have been admitted.

I know everyone has to consider their future employment viability and I don't blame the OP for whatever choice she makes. But I am just about on my last nerve when I hear people denigrating the service we provide students in our state... at a time when traditional campuses are drying up.

interleukin · Jun 5, 2011

Buyer Beware!

For-profit schools are beholden, first and foremost, to their shareholders. Getting you to sign up is their primary goal...how well you do and the quality of your education is secondary. That's why many HR people are wary of those degrees.

As long as those "schools" continue to get students(revenue stream) they have no incentive to improve their product. If you think it ain't so you are deluding yourself. Such conflicts of interest don't belong in education nor in healthcare.

One more thing...since some online schools can't acquire tougher certifications they simply buy a brick-and-mortar school which has fallen on hard times which already has a regional certification. They then institute their for-profit business model.

'Nuff said.

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Jun 5, 2011

Well, I think many of those that have posted are talking about several different things and I think that it is sad that HR people (that probably don't even have advanced degrees and I would wager hasn't even researched many of these schools) would automatically put all on-line colleges in the same category.

A couple of on-line based schools that I am looking at are regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission as well as the CCNE. I cannot imagine the CCNE accrediting a "diploma mill".

AJPV · Jun 5, 2011

I agree that is is sad, unfortunate & unfair that all for-profit schools are lumped together in the minds of many people. However, I also do not feel obligated to spend the rest of my academic & professional career defending my degree to potential schools & employers that are skeptical. So far, I haven't received any salary offers from for-profit schools to do PR/damage control for them!

There is a strong stereotype because there has been such blatant abuse committed by many (though not all) for-profit schools. As others have commented, you can get the same degree from a public or private not-for-profit school, often for much less cost, that will never be questioned by future schools & employers. I'm getting my ADN degree for less than $85 per credit hour. Sure, you may have to work harder to compete in order to get into those schools. But why would you want to put yourself at a permanent disadvantage in the marketplace?

Another thought... You are already "paying tuition" in some sense to your local public colleges & trade schools. You are doing this through your tax dollars which subsidize these schools. Why would you want to pay that "tuition," then not take advantage of it but instead turn around and pay full-price at a school that is inelligible to receive tax subsidies?

jmqphd · Jun 5, 2011

http://www.cappsonline.org/1456/gao-for-profit-schools-scandal/

http://www.citizensforethics.org/press/entry/crew-provides-sec-new-info-short-sellers-shaping-education-regulation

I'm sorry I can't make these hot links. But maybe you can cut and paste if you want to see the whole article.

First: This "scandal" all began with Sen Tom Harkin, whose staffers pressured the GAO for a report on for-profit schools. He then had hearings based upon the report. Subsequently, the GAO backed off on almost all their allegations in a "revision" to the report. They even issued a statement blaming Harkin's staff for undue pressure and influence, which is extremely rare for any "non-partisan" agencies.

Second: Prior to this dog-and-pony show, Wall Street traders were tipped to the coming pressure on for-profit schools AND the fact that the Department of Education had come up with new regulations. (It's always nice to have powerful friends.)

Third: Members of the Black Caucus have objected to these rule changes because they know that the for-profit schools will take on kids that other colleges won't and that these rule changes have disparate impact on minorities.

This ought to offend every citizen in this country.

You ask why someone should go to a for-profit school when they can go to a tax supported school for much less. Let me give you reasons: 1) single mothers who have to work to feed their kids, for whom a brick and mortar school is out 2) hard working kids who have to work full time or lose their health insurance. 3) The guy in a 12$/hour job who cannot get into that state nursing school because they keep changing the pre-reqs and when he goes to enroll in the new Western Lit (or whatever)... the classes are full. 3) The people on the waiting list who just found out the Community College dropped their accelerated program because of budget cuts, and the waiting list for the regular program just expanded 4 fold. 4) Every person in a dead end CNA position who knows their pay triples when they pass their NCLEX... yeah, these are the people I teach.

If you knew your pay would triple if you worked your butt off for 6 semesters,

if you knew the NCLEX pass rate on that for-profit school was 100%,

if you knew that there had been almost 100% job placement of that school's graduates, if the state schools couldn't tell you when if ever they'd have room for you,

if you knew you could get into that school NOW... it might just be worth going into debt to get your education done and done well.

And let me ask you a question...

When is the fed going to apply the same standards to State and Private Universities. All those coeds in the second semester of their 6th year in college, the party boys on Greek Row, the immature failure-to-launch 20 somethings who have changed majors 7 times... all of that is tolerated, indeed celebrated at these colleges.

Is that fair? The process that led to these new regulations is corrupt as it gets in DC... and equal protection under the law is all about who you know.

jmqphd · Jun 5, 2011

Oh, BTW: The New York Board of Regents began a DISTANCE ADN program in 1970, before the internet. It really was done via the mail. It's now called Excelsior College (dumb name, valuable program).

My daughter is one of the best ER nurses in town. With her ADD she'd never have survived a brick and mortar school, and she's an Excelsior graduate. When she took her NCLEX, she finished on the 75th question. I think that's called a home run.

I am proud of her. I'm proud of the graduates from our program. I'm proud of the work my colleagues and I do.