Will Non-BSN nurses ever be fired? - page 2

I'm entering nursing at a time when diploma, ADN, and BSN are all entry level educations for nursing. I don't want to get a BSN. But will there ever come a time when the ADN nurse will be fired for... Read More

  1. by   Pride of July28
    I understand I just finished my first week of an acclerated BSN -- I took most of my prereqs online and I am having such a b*&ch of a time getting back into the having to show up everyday, fin aid wasn't right, not on the class roster, etc etc

    1 week down, 64 to go and I feel like everything else will be distance learning again at my pace.
    Week 2 here I go

    Quote from AcosmicRN
    Thanks for the input, everyone. It's just that I hated nursing school so much, and not just the instructors or the schedule or the assanine tests, but I hated the administration, the clerk in the student services building, and the way the buildings were designed, and the way you got a ticket if you parked facing out of a parking spot instead of in, and on and on and on. The bottom line is that I hate school. I hated the fact that people I didn't respect had power over whether I became a nurse or not. I hated the way we students had to always be polite even when the instructors were rude, demeaning, and childish. I hate them, and I hate school.

    That doesn't mean I hate education. I read all the time. I bought all my nursing textbooks and still read them, and am looking forward to reading in them more deeply when I get the NCLEX behind me. I love cardiology and subscribed to AJN, RN and Nursing 2004. I'm all for education! But I hate school.

    I hate the way they put it (formal education) in front of you and the whole world goes running after it as if they are just crap-people unless they have this or that degree. There's never an end to it. The word salad gets bigger and bigger after a person's name until there's no room to sign it anymore. And yet, there is always another hoop to jump through, always someone saying: "eventually you'll need this or that degree to be able to compete."

    So help me God, if I can avoid it for the next 30 years, I will never step foot on a college campus again. I don't want advancement. I don't want fruit salad after my name. I just want to wear the scrubs the nurses get to wear, hang a stethescope over my neck and be able to care for patients for the next 30 years. I hate school. I hate it. I feel like a British school boy in the movie "The Wall."

    Thanks for letting me vent; thanks for the opinions on this topic.

    Acosmic
  2. by   traumaRUs
    With the nursing shortage so acute - I don't see the world of nursing closing to ADN/Diploma grads any time soon. However, the pace of floor nursing is so absurd that I don't see people in their late 50's and 60's being physically able to do it. I'm back in school because it will give me more options, not that I believe it makes me a better nurse, because I honestly don't think it does. It does however, improve my chances of moving up and perhaps (in some small way) making it easier for the newer nurses.
  3. by   pghfoxfan
    I have been a nurse for 22 years, this topic comes up all the time, threats are made, and it has never happened. With such a CRITICAL shortage, I also don't think it will ever happen. Look at other areas, anesthesia and perfusion for example...when degrees became a requierment, the "older" ones were "grandfathered in". I doubt if they will EVER get rid of nurses with diplomas or AD's. Perhaps it is the colleges and universities that start these rumors when their enrollment is down.
  4. by   Dream2BeNicUNurse
    I don't know if they will ever do this or not; it doesn't matter to me because I want my masters anyway. If this is done I hope they do grandfather the ASN nurses in because it wouldn't be fair to not acknowledge their experience and education. The hospital I want to work at, which is one of the top ten in the country, requires you to have your BSN anyway, or they won't hire you.
  5. by   NP2BE
    Quote from AcosmicRN
    I'm entering nursing at a time when diploma, ADN, and BSN are all entry level educations for nursing. I don't want to get a BSN. But will there ever come a time when the ADN nurse will be fired for not having a BSN? Or will the BSN become the only entry level education and ADNs will simply fade away through attrition? What do you think?

    (By the way, a little background: I'm entering nursing a little older than most [36]. I was a writer/publisher before, so I already have a bachelor's in another area. I'm not trying to argue a bachelor's education, I'm just tired of formal school at this time in my life. I do intend to get a CCRN, be ACLS certified and do continuing education units.)

    Acosmic

    There are still pharamacists practicing with BS degrees as well as PT.s Neither degree is still available. They now require doctoral and masters degrees respectively. You will be grandfathered in even if they do change it.

    that being said, I am in a BSN program, I don't see any real difference other then I have been required to take 2 years of Bulls*** classes prior to learning the same thing as an AD and had to write more papers, none of which will make me a more effective nurse. But there are advantages to having the paper. But Obviuosly the boards are the same
  6. by   angel337
    today at work i had 4 out of at least 10 patients that were 350lbs or more and they all had multiple complex health issues, i could not physically take care of these patients by myself and it made me frustrated that we don't have sufficient help in our department (techs, transport etc..) i like my job, but all i could think was "there is no way i can do this in 20 years". people are sicker now than ever before and the responsibility of nurses will only increase. i truly believe that all nurses will always have a job due to this one fact. also remember that all nursing graduates don't work as nurses or stay nurses once they start working. i plan to eventually get a nursing job outside of the hospital and work at the bedside part time or per diem.having a bs degree whether its in nursing or something else only makes that possibility easier. don't worry, nursing isn't going anywhere.
  7. by   llg
    I agree with the general tone of most comments in this thread. It is unlikely that we will see nurses with ADN's getting fired in our lifetime ... or even the complete elimination of the degree. However, as health care grows more complex and the roles and responsibilities of nurses become more complex, the amount of education required by people to be a nurse is increasing. That can't be ignored. As others have said, if you want the most and best career opportunities, then higher education is the way to go.

    Also, it can't be ignored that having lower educational requirements than other health professions provides justification for paying nurses less money than those health professionals.

    We each have to make the decision that is right for us ... but we each have to accept the long-term consequences of those choices. While I think you will always be able to "get a job" with an ADN, you have to ask yourself whether or not you will always be satisfied with the jobs that will be available to you. If "yes," then there will probably never be a need for you to go back to school.

    llg
  8. by   LittleCatB
    Quote from AcosmicRN
    Thanks for the input, everyone. It's just that I hated nursing school so much, and not just the instructors or the schedule or the assanine tests, but I hated the administration, the clerk in the student services building, and the way the buildings were designed, and the way you got a ticket if you parked facing out of a parking spot instead of in, and on and on and on. The bottom line is that I hate school. I hated the fact that people I didn't respect had power over whether I became a nurse or not. I hated the way we students had to always be polite even when the instructors were rude, demeaning, and childish. I hate them, and I hate school.
    <snipped>
    Acosmic
    hah! I ranted in the same way to my sister (I just can't believe all the red tape I'm running into trying to just get into nursing school) Her advice was to "just roll over and take it"
    It's not the coursework that frustrates me, just all of the petty details that you have to constantly keep on top of to graduate.
    Bethany
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    so often college programs are a HUGE money grab for the universities, so it behooves them to put up as many barriers and roadblocks to that degree as possible. It's disgusting, especially for returning students, to have to put up with it.
  10. by   cns48
    This is a good topic and I appreciate all opinions.

    I believe that there are great nurses who come from a variety of degree levels. But I think it is unfortunate that some nurses in the profession devalue education.

    Once again, I think it is great that nursing is a profession where you can enter at a variety of levels, but every nurse should aspire for higher education and more knowledge. Even the nurse who starts with a BSN should try to better him or herself.

    As times change and healthcare advances, nurses must be current in their knowledge base. Experience is definitely important, but it does not substitute for education.

    Higher education doesn't necessary make you a better nurse, it gives you a wider knowledge base and a wider perspective to pull from. I wouldn't say that higher education is better, but it surely makes a difference (formal or informal education does). People in other professions do not debate whether education makes a difference, so why does nursing?

    I agree with the person who said being a good nurse is an individual thing. I also agree that continuing education is good as well. Everyone doesn't need a Master's degree or PhD. But at the same time, we must look at what nurses are required to do and think hard if the current educational system prepares them for it. Most people will tell you no!

    Also, I agree that nursing will continue to be at the bottom of health careers if education does not keep pace with other healthcare professionals. For example, physical therapist require a Master's Degree. Not trying to degrade anyone's profession, but they do not have to do nor know half of what nurses need to be able to do and know to be competent.

    So while it is great that nursing has a variety of entry points and this should not change, we must think about how advancing education once you enter the profession will not only empower us individually, but as a profession. Most of all it will empower and ultimately benefit patients.
  11. by   webbiedebbie
    I graduated 15 years ago with ADN and this was the topic back then. It hasn't happened yet, and yes we were told we would be grandfathered in.

    The only difference I see for a requirement of BSN is in administration positions. I chose ADN because of cost and the extensive hands-on experience in clinicals as opposed to all the paper writing with BSN. I worked as a LPN for one year before sitting for the RN exam. This was very valuable experience to me. I figured I could get experience working as an ADN and if I decided later to get my BSN, this would benefit me.
  12. by   Nurse GOODNIGHT
    AMEN! Loving this. Esp. the quote on all the hassles!!! They have made it so difficult at the schools if I had know they would practically require you to quit working I would have done the ADN route instead of BSN (But bsn can go part-time and takes same time if you already have pre-requs). Know a lot of people who would be good, caring professionals but for the hassles and the lack of flexible scheduling will not (cannot) go back to school. The school is absolutely NOT understanding, caring, or flexible. Despite what they teach you about caring in Nursing School Theory, they are anything but. I have not had to repeat any courses but some have. It then appears in some cases to be a personality issue, somewhat like working. What some can get away with, others can't. I have seen so much cheating, rude, disrespectful behavior that I am scared to be a patient one day with some of my classmates "caring" for me. These appear to be the people the nursing instructors treat especially well. Thank you again for listening to me rant.
    PS If the schools are interested in money I can understand making people repeat classes for .1 of a point but disgusting, browbeating, and disrespecting people (yes students are people) to the point where they quit or quit the school where they are attending serves neither the individual school or the profession IMHO.
  13. by   rstewart
    [QUOTE=cns48]This is a good topic and I appreciate all opinions.

    But I think it is unfortunate that some nurses in the profession devalue education.

    As times change and healthcare advances, nurses must be current in their knowledge base. Experience is definitely important, but it does not substitute for education.

    But at the same time, we must look at what nurses are required to do and think hard if the current educational system prepares them for it. Most people will tell you no!

    Also, I agree that nursing will continue to be at the bottom of health careers if education does not keep pace with other healthcare professionals. For example, physical therapist require a Master's Degree. Not trying to degrade anyone's profession, but they do not have to do nor know half of what nurses need to be able to do and know to be competent.



    If I may, I would like to comment on this rather typical pro-BSN argument made by this soon to be RN student.

    First of all, I am aware that there are some who do not understand the value education can bring to their lives both professionally and otherwise. And in nursing education this usually takes the form of the "I don't need any more liberal arts courses to be a good nurse" or "BSN prepared nurses get too much theory and not enough clinical to function in a hospital" arguments. In my experience, however, I find that the vast majority of nurses do not actively initiate anti-education debates. Nor do they actively lobby legislators to restrict the time nurses must stay at the university, or to modify the BSN's scope of practice due to their perceived lack of clinical skills. In most cases their negative comments are in direct response to attacks upon their educational preparation and experience.

    I see this soon to be student has already begun to repeat the "experience is important but it does not substitute for education" mantra of nursing academia. Indeed some in nursing academia point to the controversial Aiken's study which in their minds "proves" that experience is of no value at all in improving mortality rates for surgical patients. That such conclusions are accepted as valid in the face of reality is offensive to experienced nurses. Likewise, nursing academia is not really arguing for the importance of education, per se, but only that education obtained within their walls of higher education. They conveniently ignore the fact that educational opportunities abound outside of those walls. The cutting edge of nursing practice does not lie in those nursing school texts, but rather in the halls of our research/teaching hospitals. Additionally, all manner of non-university based education is available on the latest drugs, protocals, equipment etc.

    In my view, it is this devaluation of experience and non-university based education which fuels the unfortunate divisiveness among nurses. And care should be taken when arguing that our current education system does not prepare nurses for what they are required to do as this poster does; he or she may unknowingly be making a strong case for a return to diploma programs.

    With respect to the poster's comment regarding the knowledge base of physical therapists....as one who has worked with many physical therapists in a wide variety of rehabilitation settings, I can without reservation state that this poster is sadly misinformed.

    Finally, I notice that on a previous thread the poster is seeking an accelerated nursing program. Shouldn't he or she not be concerned about missing the "benefits" of a full traditional program?

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