Will Non-BSN nurses ever be fired?

[AcosmicRN]

I'm entering nursing at a time when diploma, ADN, and BSN are all entry level educations for nursing. I don't want to get a BSN. But will there ever come a time when the ADN nurse will be fired for not having a BSN? Or will the BSN become the only entry level education and ADNs will simply fade away through attrition? What do you think?

(By the way, a little background: I'm entering nursing a little older than most [36]. I was a writer/publisher before, so I already have a bachelor's in another area. I'm not trying to argue a bachelor's education, I'm just tired of formal school at this time in my life. I do intend to get a CCRN, be ACLS certified and do continuing education units.)

Acosmic

[Nurse GOODNIGHT]

AMEN! Loving this. Esp. the quote on all the hassles!!! They have made it so difficult at the schools if I had know they would practically require you to quit working I would have done the ADN route instead of BSN (But bsn can go part-time and takes same time if you already have pre-requs). Know a lot of people who would be good, caring professionals but for the hassles and the lack of flexible scheduling will not (cannot) go back to school. The school is absolutely NOT understanding, caring, or flexible. Despite what they teach you about caring in Nursing School Theory, they are anything but. I have not had to repeat any courses but some have. It then appears in some cases to be a personality issue, somewhat like working. What some can get away with, others can't. I have seen so much cheating, rude, disrespectful behavior that I am scared to be a patient one day with some of my classmates "caring" for me. These appear to be the people the nursing instructors treat especially well. Thank you again for listening to me rant.

PS If the schools are interested in money I can understand making people repeat classes for .1 of a point but disgusting, browbeating, and disrespecting people (yes students are people) to the point where they quit or quit the school where they are attending serves neither the individual school or the profession IMHO.

[rstewart]

This is a good topic and I appreciate all opinions.

But I think it is unfortunate that some nurses in the profession devalue education.

As times change and healthcare advances, nurses must be current in their knowledge base. Experience is definitely important, but it does not substitute for education.

But at the same time, we must look at what nurses are required to do and think hard if the current educational system prepares them for it. Most people will tell you no!

Also, I agree that nursing will continue to be at the bottom of health careers if education does not keep pace with other healthcare professionals. For example, physical therapist require a Master's Degree. Not trying to degrade anyone's profession, but they do not have to do nor know half of what nurses need to be able to do and know to be competent.

If I may, I would like to comment on this rather typical pro-BSN argument made by this soon to be RN student.

First of all, I am aware that there are some who do not understand the value education can bring to their lives both professionally and otherwise. And in nursing education this usually takes the form of the "I don't need any more liberal arts courses to be a good nurse" or "BSN prepared nurses get too much theory and not enough clinical to function in a hospital" arguments. In my experience, however, I find that the vast majority of nurses do not actively initiate anti-education debates. Nor do they actively lobby legislators to restrict the time nurses must stay at the university, or to modify the BSN's scope of practice due to their perceived lack of clinical skills. In most cases their negative comments are in direct response to attacks upon their educational preparation and experience.

I see this soon to be student has already begun to repeat the "experience is important but it does not substitute for education" mantra of nursing academia. Indeed some in nursing academia point to the controversial Aiken's study which in their minds "proves" that experience is of no value at all in improving mortality rates for surgical patients. That such conclusions are accepted as valid in the face of reality is offensive to experienced nurses. Likewise, nursing academia is not really arguing for the importance of education, per se, but only that education obtained within their walls of higher education. They conveniently ignore the fact that educational opportunities abound outside of those walls. The cutting edge of nursing practice does not lie in those nursing school texts, but rather in the halls of our research/teaching hospitals. Additionally, all manner of non-university based education is available on the latest drugs, protocals, equipment etc.

In my view, it is this devaluation of experience and non-university based education which fuels the unfortunate divisiveness among nurses. And care should be taken when arguing that our current education system does not prepare nurses for what they are required to do as this poster does; he or she may unknowingly be making a strong case for a return to diploma programs.

With respect to the poster's comment regarding the knowledge base of physical therapists....as one who has worked with many physical therapists in a wide variety of rehabilitation settings, I can without reservation state that this poster is sadly misinformed.

Finally, I notice that on a previous thread the poster is seeking an accelerated nursing program. Shouldn't he or she not be concerned about missing the "benefits" of a full traditional program?

[loerith]

IMHO formal education has little to nothing to do with the competence of a nurse or the quality of care a patient receives. I have worked with experienced diploma LPNs who are better nurses than many MSN's will ever be.

Love and Peace,

loerith

[webbiedebbie]

I agree with the above post. What is wrong with having a "clinical ladder" for education? CNA to LPN to ADN to BSN to Masters?

I myself do my own education. I have been a nurse for 15 years. I concentrate on areas that pertain to my area of expertise, and others as well. For instance...diabetes. There have been changes in this and I keep up, myself, at my own pace. I even do CEU's, though my state does not require it.

I have worked with management (BSN and higher) who forget what patient care is really all about. We are on the floors getting our hands DIRTY! I feel it is my responsibility to learn all I can to give the best care to my patients.

[canoehead, BSN, RN]

I response to the original poster, I heard and worried about losing my job because I didn't have a BSN in 1989. They were saying that in 5 years all non-BSN nurses would be out. Here it is 2004, and they are crying for nurses, RN/BSN/whatever. So I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I originally did my RN, then went back for my BSN, so have experienced both programs. IMO the BSN was less than useless. It kept me from getting the real education that was to be had within the hospital walls, sucked me dry emotionally and financially. I did the whole program and not once had a clinical experience where the instructor could evaluate my nursing skills- but I can research and write a paper on anything. Other than getting a few publications to put on my resume, what's the point of that?

IMO the BSN program was absolute crap.

[AcosmicRN]

I response to the original poster, I heard and worried about losing my job because I didn't have a BSN in 1989. They were saying that in 5 years all non-BSN nurses would be out. Here it is 2004, and they are crying for nurses, RN/BSN/whatever. So I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I originally did my RN, then went back for my BSN, so have experienced both programs. IMO the BSN was less than useless. It kept me from getting the real education that was to be had within the hospital walls, sucked me dry emotionally and financially. I did the whole program and not once had a clinical experience where the instructor could evaluate my nursing skills- but I can research and write a paper on anything. Other than getting a few publications to put on my resume, what's the point of that?

IMO the BSN program was absolute crap.

Dear Canoehead,

Thanks for the honest appraisal. I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm anti-education, because I'm not. It's just that I already have a bachelors and I don't want another one. I think it's good you have a BSN. I think, if nothing else, it gives you the confidence to trust in your own judgment. It doesn't replace being a good nurse, as I'm sure you agree. But a bachelors prepared nurse, especially a BSN, definitely means you have something on the ball.

Acosmic

[canoehead, BSN, RN]

True, it takes a lot of motivation to start and to finish a degree. But we should have educational programs that make sense for nurses working at the bedside. My program was more for an administrator (hack!)

[teeituptom, BSN, RN]

wont happen in my lifetime

[Brob]

Hi All,

I am a nursing student in a hospital based AD program. I just read an article in the last issue of advance for nurses magazine about a proposed law in New York State that would mandate that a nurse get a BSN within 10 yrs of graduating school or they would have to practice under an LPN license. I imagine if it passed other states would soon follow.

In some respects I am against it because it was being proposed under the guise that ADN nurses would no longer continue their education and I believe getting certifications, in service training and CE credits will be more productive than another 50 credits in non nursing subjects and approx 9 credits in actual nursing classes to complete my BSN.

I do intend on completing my BSN only because I do feel masters programs for nurses are beneficial and you need to have it to get in a program but I really feel that for bedside nursing getting more certifications and the like are a more productive and useful way to go initially after school.

Just a quick THANK YOU to all the nurses who take the time to teach the students they come in contact with a little something!!! Love ya all!!!

[Dixiedi]

Hi All,

I am a nursing student in a hospital based AD program. I just read an article in the last issue of advance for nurses magazine about a proposed law in New York State that would mandate that a nurse get a BSN within 10 yrs of graduating school or they would have to practice under an LPN license. I imagine if it passed other states would soon follow.

In some respects I am against it because it was being proposed under the guise that ADN nurses would no longer continue their education and I believe getting certifications, in service training and CE credits will be more productive than another 50 credits in non nursing subjects and approx 9 credits in actual nursing classes to complete my BSN.

I do intend on completing my BSN only because I do feel masters programs for nurses are beneficial and you need to have it to get in a program but I really feel that for bedside nursing getting more certifications and the like are a more productive and useful way to go initially after school.

Just a quick THANK YOU to all the nurses who take the time to teach the students they come in contact with a little something!!! Love ya all!!!

Amen... just goes to prove that LPNs are not the only ones who believe you continue to learn after graduation and that college credits do not a qualified nurse make!

[Salus]

"Nurses want to be proffesionals, not technical"

Dixiedi, could you please elaborate on the above.

Thank you.

[Dixiedi]

"Nurses want to be proffesionals, not technical"

Dixiedi, could you please elaborate on the above.

Thank you.

First let me say ... I do not mean every nurse or any particular group of nurses. However, the ANA has been striving for RNs to be referred to as Professional Nurses and LPNs and ADN RNs to be referred to as Techinal Nurses.

Now, if you've read some of the other threads, particularly the one bashing the dickens out of the ANA you would probably agree with me that when I said "nurses" I probably wasn't referring to any real nurses, only those who speak for us.

In MHO for nurses to actually be professionals and not technical pt care providers (how's that for making up a simple definition, LOL) would be for entry level to be at the masters level. Now really, how many masters prepared anybody's are going to do bedside nursing.

We can behave in a professional manner, have a professional outlook as far as our carreer choice is concerned, have aprofessional attitude toward my employer and intereact with my pt and his/her family in a professional manner, etc etc etc.... BUT, I am still work under the orders of a true professional, the Doc (etc.)

There are nurses who are professionals, the have advanced practice certs/degrees.

I have read posts in other thread and elsewhere where NP complain they don't make nearly what MDs do. Well, DAH... even if that NP has his/her PHd she still not attend college to obtain a BS? (pre-med or other), then Med School, then residency... A true Professional has a degree higher than a BSN.

No matter how educated we become, we are caregivers. We follow the MDs orders. It's real darn handy if you know when and how to question those orders, but fact is, when we do disagree with a Docs orders, we have to take it to him/her. We can not just change it. We are not the professional, the Doc is. We are the caregivers attempting to (this is certainly no insult to any BSN on floor duty) claim we are professionals.

The definition of professional has changed over the years to include anyone with a defined carreer. I'm from the old school and can not, even with todays' definition consider the guy flippin burgers for 40 years a professional, nor can I consider a nurse who must follow Docs orders a professional. We are carreer minded, professionally behaved technically minded care givers. (How many docs do you know who can even set up a simple pump?, ANY of our assorted pumps!?)

This is pretty long and I have tried to be clear but I am sure it's just as clear as mud. Don't mean for it to be, but it is a very thin line between true professional and a carreer minded individual with a professional behavior; which is what I hope we all are.