What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only? If education ( and well roundedness) is soooo valuable to the profession, then let us recognize the value of an ADN coupled with a prior or new baccalaureate degree, or higher, and quit making it all about BSN! I would LOVE to study another major, say in foreign languages, majoring and minoring in them. I find returning for RN-BSN soooo unsatisfying and would MUCH rather do that. But no, they want us to have BSN only to advance in nursing. How short sighted is that? I think an ADN provides the whole "base" we need to be registered nurses, and would think coupling it with a degree of another discipline more than valuable. Anyone else?

A BA coupled with ADN is good, but you realize that there are more nursing courses in the BSN program. I'm all for there to be an easy route for someone in the position you mentioned to pick up the additional nursing courses with the least pain and agony.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

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zenman · Jul 19, 2004

Just another point...and this really scares me! I've taught in both ADN and BSN programs and have done so twice with a few years in between both teaching positions. The second time I went back to teaching, I could tell that the education was slipping. The college even had remedial courses! I'm sitting there in my office wondering why the colleges had to pick up where the high schools have failed. The difference between my experence on the floor 30 years ago and now is the reason my wife has never stayed in a hospital by herself. As a supervisor, I'm on all the floors and I see many things I wish I didn't have to see. So, yes, I argue for more education for the entry level. All my education (8 years of college, plus) whether it's in nursing or not has been very valuable and is one reason I see things the way I do. If I had Ph.D., I would have even a different perspective. I don't bad mouth people with more education than me because I recognize the benefits of it. I may even go to NP school because I don't feel I know enough! The more educaton one gets, the more one realizes how little one knows. I challenge those of you who have argued for 2-3 years of nursing to continue your education. I'm sure you will then have a different perspective on the situation. And regarding gen ed courses..."the natural science view of the world is ceasing to be an essentially natural scientific approach" ... Werner Heisenberg. It's been fun!

SmilingBluEyes · Jul 19, 2004

I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.

I can see your point as they will not be helpful for me and my goals. But the point is that we should have one entry level; the BSN (or any 4 year degree in any profession) is not for an individual's goals other than for entering the field of their choice. Everyone has different goals. We would go nuts trying to design a degree plan for everyone and employers would probably go crazy too! However, if you continue to read in your chosen area, Research (and stats) would be helpful in evaulating an article or study...and do your patients not come from the community? The greatest strides in healthcare have come because of public and community health, not from technological advances. Sadly, this is the area that gets the fewest dollars! At one time I did consider getting a masters in Liberal Arts...just for the fun of it and the knowledge since courses outside of nursing give you a wider viewpoint from which to view each patient.

SmilingBluEyes · Jul 19, 2004

what do you think about LPN nurses then, Randy? If one entry level is to be standard,what of LPN's? As we know, many of the lay public have NO clue the difference between RN/LPN/ NP etc. Doctors at times even think "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Where do they fit in your idea of the one level entry professional nursing track?

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 19, 2004

I definitely would not say it like that! So this is why some of you are so incensed by this point. You have not been taught how to do it! Now, it's clear to me! Looks like more education in how to do history taking is in order here! You are making my point for me...more education is needed.

But that's exactly what you did say!

Oh, and by the by, most professions--including veternarian--require more than a bachelor's degree.

I think what at least some of us arguing against a BSN as entry level are getting at is that your central assumption: if two high school grads attend nursing school, one an ADN and one a BSN, the BSN will know more, is an overly broad generalization. All else being equal, yes, one can learn more in four years than in two, but who says all else is equal? If--as I don't think anyone can dispute--there are excellent nurses with associate's degrees, then one can become an excellent nurse through an associate's (or diploma) program. Likewise, it is apparently possible to become a mediocre, or even poor nurse while gaining a BSN. And don't bother mentioning the bell curve. Your standard would exclude nurses at the strong end of the ADN curve but include ones at the week end of the BSN curve. That's the problem with degree inflation--it favors credentials over expertise.

If our goal is to promote excellence in nursing, we should be looking at what it is that makes excellent nurses excellent, rather than worrying about enhancing our prestige.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2004

I had an two semesters of A&P, with labs, in my ADN program.

My A&P II course was taught by a retired surgeon.

I also had a semester of pharmacology.

Human Relations and Business Mgmt., and Organizational Structures are two of the required classes in my ADN program.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

But that's exactly what you did say!
I have only stated that it is important to determine the schooling level. I have not yet told you exactly what I say when I ask patients what their educational status is. I certainly do not say it the way you did! A good nursing assessment and history taking book will get you on the right path. Point is that it should be asked. I have never known it to be such a difficult question to ask.
Oh, and by the by, most professions--including veternarian--require more than a bachelor's degree.
Most professions have the BS as entry level. The vet degree is a terminal ( doctoral degree.)
I think what at least some of us arguing against a BSN as entry level are getting at is that your central assumption: if two high school grads attend nursing school, one an ADN and one a BSN, the BSN will know more, is an overly broad generalization.

Can hardly be considered overly broad as every course you take increases your knowledge level! It may be considered "broad" in the fact that it's true!
All else being equal, yes, one can learn more in four years than in two, but who says all else is equal? If--as I don't think anyone can dispute--there are excellent nurses with associate's degrees, then one can become an excellent nurse through an associate's (or diploma) program. Likewise, it is apparently possible to become a mediocre, or even poor nurse while gaining a BSN. And don't bother mentioning the bell curve. Your standard would exclude nurses at the strong end of the ADN curve but include ones at the week end of the BSN curve. That's the problem with degree inflation--it favors credentials over expertise.
You're basically answering your own question. Nothing else is equal. It's not "degree" inflation; you have more knowledge to start with. Whether you become excellent or not is another matter. The "masses" need to start at one entry level. Like I said earlier, if you think the ADN is ok as entry level, then let's do the same with public school teachers...2 years and they are teaching your kids.
If our goal is to promote excellence in nursing, we should be looking at what it is that makes excellent nurses excellent, rather than worrying about enhancing our prestige.
My point is not about prestige, although we are lacking that. The very fact that this thread has to exist is one of my points.

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

what do you think about LPN nurses then, Randy? If one entry level is to be standard,what of LPN's? As we know, many of the lay public have NO clue the difference between RN/LPN/ NP etc. Doctors at times even think "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Where do they fit in your idea of the one level entry professional nursing track?

That would be similar to asking me what I think about CNAs. I love them! I've been both. I can't remember a single LPN that was not very good. Where do they fit in with my idea of one entry professional nursing track? The key word is professional nursing. Someone has already posted a definition of professionals. LPNs are similar to other professions that have a 4 yr degree as entry level and who have technical levels that report to them. I haven't checked lately but aren't many LPN programs expanding in length and about to approach the 18 month - 2 yr mark? So...are ADN programs going to expand before the LPNs catch up to them?

zenman · Jul 19, 2004

Posted by doodlebug914: What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?
I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an 'exit' type of exam that we have to pass before taking our boards. I'm feeling down about not being able to pass and have this huge fear that I am not going to pass my boards!
Amidst my fear, I am questioning taking a role as an RN on floor nursing. It seems like most of the RN's on my floor have an associates degree, and I am questioning if I should be doing something different since I have my bachelor's? The pay is the same for an Assoc. or BSN, which doesn't make any sense to me. Just wondering what else is available that I might not be looking for, or what your opinions are!?
Another BSN student who just graduated as well was speaking with me, and said she wonders if the Assoc. degree RN's laugh thinking that we have wasted our time getting our BSN when we get the same pay/same responsibilities. Is this a big issue?

Apparently you discovered that this issue is a hot one! The fact that we may be the only profession that has 3 entry levels does not speak well for a so-called profession. The pay issues and responsibilities are a complex problem in our profession that is not easily solved. It would be if there was only one entry level. So...your original question can be answered by you doing as you were taught. You have seen me challenge people and get many to show exactly what I wanted them to do...identify weaknesses in their education. Many of the things I brought up are taught in a BSN program (I've taught in both ADN and BSN) and are not taught to ADN grads. Many ADN grads are actually operating outside their scope of education and are not even aware of the dangers involved. You have seen posters who seem to see no value to education, particularly if it is not nursing courses. No one has yet answered my question, "are you comfortable about having public school teachers with 2 years of college teaching your kids?" This is an emotional issue with those who have one type of educational background fighting to say that they have what it takes, yet they do not have the appropriate background to argue the issue. It's like students telling the professor what they should be taught! "The man who knows HOW works for the man that knows WHY." Congrats on starting this post; maybe some have learned something or will as least have another viewpoint to consider. Again, you have the educational background to perform as a professional nurse. You have not wasted your time. Keep on studying; I can tell you that hitting the books never stops! You have anymore threads that you'd like to start! :rotfl:

mamabear · Jul 19, 2004

It makes no difference as long as you don't want to apply for a management position, and who is to say that might not happen in the future? You open more doors. Our facility pays $1/hr extra for BSN. Even if it did not, as an older student I realized I could never acquire the experience so had to go for education in order to expand my practice.

My Clinical Manager (in olden times they were called "head nurses") is an ASN who clawed his way to the top by stepping all over the person who hired him. (He also made it abundantly clear to the suits that his predecessor was a useless dolt who shamelessly played favorites, never got things done on time, and spent a good chunk of her day checking in on her OTHER full time job.) :rolleyes: