What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't? - page 18

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an... Read More

  1. by   P_RN
    The Moderators appreciate all the excellent input. In 24 hours this thread will be archived Thank you all for your views on the subject.


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  2. by   NRSKarenRN
    what is a professional--us governments definition

    29cfr541.541.301 - learned professions.
    www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/esa/ title_29/part_541/29cfr541.301.htm

    (a) the ``learned'' professions are described in sec. 541.3(a)(1) as
    those requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or
    learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized
    intellectual instruction and study as distinguished from a general
    academic education and from an apprenticeship and from training in the
    performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes.
    (b) the first element in the requirement is that the knowledge be of
    an advanced type. thus, generally speaking, it must be knowledge which
    cannot be attained at the high school level.
    (c) second, it must be knowledge in a field of science or learning.
    this serves to distinguish the professions from the mechanical arts
    where in some instances the knowledge is of a fairly advanced type, but
    not in a field of science or learning.
    (d) the requisite knowledge, in the third place, must be customarily
    acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction
    and study. here it should be noted that the word ``customarily'' has
    been used to meet a specific problem occurring in many industries. as is
    well known, even in the classical profession of law, there are still a
    few practitioners who have gained their knowledge by home study and
    experience. characteristically, the members of the profession are
    graduates of law schools, but some few of their fellow professionals
    whose status is equal to theirs, whose attainments are the same, and
    whose word is the same did not enjoy that opportunity. such persons are
    not barred from the exemption. the word ``customarily'' implies that in
    the vast majority of cases the specific academic training is a
    prerequisite for entrance into the profession. it makes the exemption
    available to the occasional lawyer who has not gone to law school, or
    the occasional chemist who is not the possessor of a degree in
    chemistry, etc., but it does not include the members of such quasi-
    professions as journalism in which the bulk of the employees have
    acquired their skill by experience rather than by any formal specialized
    training. it should be noted also that many employees in these quasi-
    professions may qualify for exemption under other sections of the
    regulations in subpart a of this part or under the alternative paragraph
    of the ``professional'' definition applicable to the artistic fields.
    (e)(1) generally speaking the professions which meet the requirement
    for a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study
    include law, medicine, nursing, accounting, actuarial computation,
    engineering, architecture, teaching, various types of physical,
    chemical, and biological sciences, including pharmacy and registered or
    certified medical technology and so forth. the typical symbol of the
    professional training and the best prima facie evidence of its
    possession is, of course, the appropriate academic degree, and in these
    professions an advanced academic degree is a standard (if not universal)
    prequisite. in the case of registered (or certified) medical
    technologists, successful completion of 3 academic years of
    preprofessional study in an accredited college or university plus a
    fourth year of professional course work in a school of medical
    technology approved by the council of medical education of the american
    medical association will be recognized as a prolonged course of
    specialized intellectual instruction and study. registered nurses have
    traditionally been recognized as professional employees by the division
    in its enforcement of the act. although, in some cases, the course of
    study has become shortened (but more concentrated), nurses who are
    registered by the appropriate state examining board will continue to be
    recognized as having met the requirement of sec. 541.3(a)(1) of the
    regulations.
    (2) the areas in which professional exemptions may be available are
    expanding. as knowledge is developed, academic training is broadened,
    degrees are offered in new and diverse fields, specialties are created
    and the true specialist, so trained, who is given new and greater
    responsibilities, comes closer to meeting the tests. however, just as an
    excellent legal stenographer is not a lawyer, these technical
    specialists must be more than highly skilled technicians. many employees
    in industry rise to executive or administrative positions by their
    natural ability and good commonsense, combined with long experience with
    a company, without the aid of a college education or degree in any area.
    a college education would perhaps give an executive or administrator a
    more cultured and polished approach but the necessary know-how for doing
    the executive job would depend upon the person's own inherent talent.
    the professional person, on the other hand, attains his status after a
    prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.
    (f) many accountants are exempt as professional employees
    (regardless of whether they are employed by public accounting firms or
    by other types of enterprises). (some accountants may qualify for
    exemption as bona fide administrative employees.) however, exemption of
    accountants, as in the case of other occupational groups (see
    sec. 541.308), must be determined on the basis of the individual
    employee's duties and the other criteria in the regulations. it has been
    the divisions' experience that certified public accountants who meet the
    salary requirement of the regulations will, except in unusual cases,
    meet the requirements of the professional exemption since they meet the
    tests contained in sec. 541.3. similarly, accountants who are not
    certified public accountants may also be exempt as professional
    employees if they actually perform work which requires the consistent
    exercise of discretion and judgment and otherwise meet the tests
    prescribed in the definition of ``professional'' employee. accounting
    clerks, junior accountants, and other accountants, on the other hand,
    normally perform a great deal of routine work which is not an essential
    part of and necessarily incident to any professional work which they may
    do. where these facts are found such accountants are not exempt. the
    title ``junior accountant,'' however, is not determinative of failure to
    qualify for exemption any more than the title ``senior accountant''
    would necessarily imply that the employee is exempt....

    [38 fr 11390, may 7, 1973. redesignated and amended at 57 fr 46744, oct.
    9, 1992.]

    ------------
    why is it, a say, ba coupled with an adn not good enough?


    definition of a professional includes: learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study.
    few adn programs include education and clinical training in public health or home health nursing, leadership/management and administration, and research.


    it is intended that graduates with a bs major in nursing will have a sound educational basis for beginning professional practice, for continuing development, for graduate study in nursing, and for accepting professional and civic responsibilities. the addition of the above courses helps to round out professional nursing practice--areas not covered in a ba program.
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jul 18, '04
  3. by   zenman
    There is no possible way to say, "Let me know your education level and I'll explain it to you..." without offending.
    I definitely would not say it like that! So this is why some of you are so incensed by this point. You have not been taught how to do it! Now, it's clear to me! Looks like more education in how to do history taking is in order here! You are making my point for me...more education is needed.

    It's clear you do not want my learned opinion so please consult nursing assessment books and search the web for this information. As I said before, patients have died due to faulty patient teaching. Patients appreciate an extensive history and physical. I heard a physician last night say that history taking is an art and few physicians know how to do it anymore. A very extensive history can reap benefits and save time and money and improve patient outcome.


    Hopefully, it's clear by now that you don't want to suggest to AD nurses that they aren't "real" nurses--goes double for LPN's, by the way. But education is never wasted.
    No, they are nurses by vertue of licensure. I'm just arguing for one entry level. If you want it to be the ADN, that is fine. At the same time, however, you must make sure that your kids teachers just have a minimum of 2 years to teach. If you do that, considering that health care is more complex and more life and death decisions lie in your hands, then I'll go along with you! I really do not see where there is a real decision to make!
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
  4. by   Q.
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only?
    For the record, I'm personally not that bent on a BSN. I'm all for ANY 4 year degree for nurses. But since the BSN is a bachelor's degree with a major in nursing, which is the profession we are talking about, most discussions will default to that.
  5. by   zenman
    Quote from suzy253
    Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.

    Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.
    I guess you do not realize the value of education. Hope your children do not pick up this attitude.

    Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well.
    The BSN should be the only way for the reasons I spoken of. ADNs do not learn as much in a 2 yr program as in a 4 year program...you can't argue that fact! Those of us with more education do not think less of you as a person...why do so many diploma and ADN grads think this?
  6. by   zenman
    Quote from earle58
    NURSEMIKE!!!

    thank you, thank you and thank you. someone who gets it...
    Just as I told nursemike...since you don't believe me go take a nursing assessment course, surf the web or look in a nursing assessment and history taking book. Then let me see you back track!
  7. by   zenman
    Quote from earle58
    a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.

    leslie
    A 4 year degree is considered the basic degree and includes gen ed subjects, just as in all 4 yr degree programs. It makes for a well-rounded person. The BSN is not a "specialist" degree; that's where the masters degree comes in.
    You son can benefit from video games...even the military uses them for training. He just should not spend all day on them! All learning is lifelong; we still need to start everyone off at the same level. The profession is messed up enough.
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
  8. by   zenman
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I have said this before. Why is it, a say, BA coupled with an ADN not good enough? Why must it be BSN only? If education ( and well roundedness) is soooo valuable to the profession, then let us recognize the value of an ADN coupled with a prior or new baccalaureate degree, or higher, and quit making it all about BSN! I would LOVE to study another major, say in foreign languages, majoring and minoring in them. I find returning for RN-BSN soooo unsatisfying and would MUCH rather do that. But no, they want us to have BSN only to advance in nursing. How short sighted is that? I think an ADN provides the whole "base" we need to be registered nurses, and would think coupling it with a degree of another discipline more than valuable. Anyone else?
    A BA coupled with ADN is good, but you realize that there are more nursing courses in the BSN program. I'm all for there to be an easy route for someone in the position you mentioned to pick up the additional nursing courses with the least pain and agony.
  9. by   zenman
    Quote from P_RN
    The Moderators appreciate all the excellent input. In 24 hours this thread will be archived Thank you all for your views on the subject.


    P_RN Moderator General Nursing Forum
    Moderator All forums
    Wait! Have we made this the longest thread ever? :hatparty:
  10. by   zenman
    Just another point...and this really scares me! I've taught in both ADN and BSN programs and have done so twice with a few years in between both teaching positions. The second time I went back to teaching, I could tell that the education was slipping. The college even had remedial courses! I'm sitting there in my office wondering why the colleges had to pick up where the high schools have failed. The difference between my experence on the floor 30 years ago and now is the reason my wife has never stayed in a hospital by herself. As a supervisor, I'm on all the floors and I see many things I wish I didn't have to see. So, yes, I argue for more education for the entry level. All my education (8 years of college, plus) whether it's in nursing or not has been very valuable and is one reason I see things the way I do. If I had Ph.D., I would have even a different perspective. I don't bad mouth people with more education than me because I recognize the benefits of it. I may even go to NP school because I don't feel I know enough! The more educaton one gets, the more one realizes how little one knows. I challenge those of you who have argued for 2-3 years of nursing to continue your education. I'm sure you will then have a different perspective on the situation. And regarding gen ed courses..."the natural science view of the world is ceasing to be an essentially natural scientific approach" ... Werner Heisenberg. It's been fun!
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.
  12. by   zenman
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I don't think so Randy. The additional BSN courses I have had and will have are not going to be all that helpful for me and my goals, Randy. It's just filling squares. I repeat, IF we are to be as well-rounded as all that, (by far the biggest argument I see pro-BSN people make), then I say open it up a bit and make it acceptable and equal to have an ADN plus Baccalaureate and Master's degrees of choice. If education is of so much value as all that, then surely you can't argue with me. Community health nursing and Research topics are not helpful to me in my situation, and won't be. I would much more enjoy a more liberal-arts background. And I believe I would gain and be able to offer more to my obstetric patients of varying backgrounds. I just dont think that BSN is the be-all, end all to nursing. It really does NOT make better nurses. Education of all sorts should be appreciated, not just BSN.
    I can see your point as they will not be helpful for me and my goals. But the point is that we should have one entry level; the BSN (or any 4 year degree in any profession) is not for an individual's goals other than for entering the field of their choice. Everyone has different goals. We would go nuts trying to design a degree plan for everyone and employers would probably go crazy too! However, if you continue to read in your chosen area, Research (and stats) would be helpful in evaulating an article or study...and do your patients not come from the community? The greatest strides in healthcare have come because of public and community health, not from technological advances. Sadly, this is the area that gets the fewest dollars! At one time I did consider getting a masters in Liberal Arts...just for the fun of it and the knowledge since courses outside of nursing give you a wider viewpoint from which to view each patient.
    Last edit by zenman on Jul 18, '04
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    what do you think about LPN nurses then, Randy? If one entry level is to be standard,what of LPN's? As we know, many of the lay public have NO clue the difference between RN/LPN/ NP etc. Doctors at times even think "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Where do they fit in your idea of the one level entry professional nursing track?

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