What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

Nurses General Nursing

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zenman

1 Article; 2,806 Posts

Posted by earle58: ZENMAN , w/all due respect, you're just not getting it. let me try to make you understand.

I wish you would!

when someone is collecting various information on admission, it is NOT the same as asking your pt. their educational level before you decide on how you're going to teach them.

I'm even more confused! Asking their educational level should occur during the initial assessment. That is before you teach them! DC planning starts at admission. For a minute there I thought I was losing my mind so I went and looked in Bate's Physical Assessment and History Taking and sure enough it said to determine the patients "last level of schooling."

You also made a comment that asking people their educational level was degrading. Last time I checked, nurses were stripping people butt naked and sticking things in them and up them. Is this less degrading?

if you cannot see the difference, then all the degrees in the world just can't teach you some things.

Are we clear now??

you also can be proficient in your discharge teaching yet many pts. return to the hospitals secondary to noncompliance, and seldom it's because of not understanding their instructions. it is typically a host of other etiologies.

That is true but not always the case, as I have seen quite a few enter ICU or the grave because they failed to understand what they were taught. My wife, a masters-prepared school teacher, is amazed at this thread. She told me to ask if you guys were comfortable with teachers being able to teach with only 2 years of college. (I think I've already brought that up earlier.) She also mentioned that she was a mentor for a new teacher who sent some assignment home with a student so his parents could help him. Unfortunately, the teacher assumed that the parents could read. There was a lot of turmoil and embarressment over this and my wife told the new teacher never to assume anything, not even that the parents could read. In our field, people can die.

if you are indeed familiar w/therapeutic communication, it would behoove you to exercise it on this board, rather than attempting to belittle your colleagues with your very weak references, your innuendos and LOL emoticons.

Look, I'm a funny guy! It runs in the family; my dad had a cardiac arrest in the doctor's office while telling the doctor jokes. So I can't help it! Humor is good...check it out. That's why my BP a few minutes ago down in the ED was 117/62 and my pulse 58.

furthermore, your 1-15 list was bogus and nonverifiable. very suspect.

I guess you did not visit the links I posted. I didn't make them up!!

bottom line, bsns are certainly a noble way to go but unless you're pursuing managerial, at this time it is not mandatory,nor is a reflection of any nurse's capabilities.

The BSN was not created to just assume management positions but to "manage" the complex care of patients. ADN grads are "educated" to manage identified patient problems. Why are people so hung up thinking that BSN is for management only?

your preaching and antagonizing hasn't convinced me one iota...i think we need to work on your therapeutic communication.

I'm trying to "slap some of you upside the head" till you come to your senses. My "preaching" as you call it has a purpose...to safeguard patients and improve the profession. I thought that you do not determine your patients educational level. If that is so, your practice is very dangerous and needs to stop. If you do assess your patients educational level, occupation and many other factors, then I applaud you!

zenman

1 Article; 2,806 Posts

My opinion: people use the NCLEX as the be-all-end-all of a nurse. NCLEX is a standardized test (which many nursing schools prepare you for - ie: teaching to the test) and represents novice safe practice. The NCLEX is the bare-minimum needed to practice. I certainly don't hold it up as any sort of benchmark.

Secondly, from an educator's point of view, a bachelor's degree is much more than reciting Shakespeare for heaven's sake. And I fully disagree that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Just like a cardiologist is not an obstetrician is not a radiologist. Why do we generalize nurses but not physicians?

Thank you for saving me some time! I posted earlier how non-nursing courses can improve your nursing career. Thank you very much!

zenman

1 Article; 2,806 Posts

Good point. What's interesting is that to be an MD they all have to have the same education. To be an RN you don't. Nursing is unlike medicine and other "professions" in that respect.

True; that's why MDs don't have threads like this one! They can argue, however, that "my school was better than yours!" Or that an MD is better than a DO.

zenman

1 Article; 2,806 Posts

Rats, I should have gone to the schools where you are. The RN to BSN program I've been accepted to is nothing but two years of nursing courses I didn't get in my ADN program. Some of course are more in detail like a whole semester of assessment, and physiology. And a whole course on family nursing and one on cultural nursing, stuff that was only touched on in my ADN program. But they all are nursing courses, not general ed courses.

Is it going to make me a better nurse at the bedside? I hope so.

Go for it, 3rdShiftGuy. Now 3rdShiftGuy can help a lot of you guys with more than an opinion because he is "there." Keep it up!

RN4NICU, LPN, LVN

1,711 Posts

My opinion: people use the NCLEX as the be-all-end-all of a nurse. NCLEX is a standardized test (which many nursing schools prepare you for - ie: teaching to the test) and represents novice safe practice. The NCLEX is the bare-minimum needed to practice. I certainly don't hold it up as any sort of benchmark.

Secondly, from an educator's point of view, a bachelor's degree is much more than reciting Shakespeare for heaven's sake. And I fully disagree that a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Just like a cardiologist is not an obstetrician is not a radiologist. Why do we generalize nurses but not physicians?

Right on!!

If we are going to shun education - why not just skip college altogether and make the whole darned thing OJT?

Do you think engineers need the liberal arts classes they take in their degree programs to perform their day to day jobs? Nope.

Do they still have to take those classes to get their degrees? Yes.

Do they have associate's degree level engineers? Yes. They are technicians that report to the engineer with the Bachelor's degree.

Could those folks probably do everything the engineers with the higher degree can do? Once they become experienced, they could probably do more - but they still don't have the degree.

Should people with higher levels of education be paid more? Yes.

zenman

1 Article; 2,806 Posts

WHen the original poster wrote this, I don't think it was his intention to ask about each and every clients schooling level. When he said "education level" I think he meant that to mean health educational level. Now seriously, you didn't think that he asked people "Do you have a bachelor's?" All of us assess our patient's health educational level and needs. Now c'mon... dig a little deeper and see what his statements really mean.

No, I meant to say that you determine a patients educational level, high school, college etc.. Don't you guys even see this in the MDs assessments? As it says in Bate's Physical Assessment and History Taking, determine a patients "last level of schooling." You will plan your patient teaching, discharge planning, etc., based on their educational level (among other factors). Your teaching will be different based on whether they only completed the 8th grade or if they have a masters degree. My parents only went to the 9th grade, and as much as I love them, they are pretty damn dumb when it comes to the health care field. I explain things a lot differently to them than I would to someone else.

Q.

2,259 Posts

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
if one is pursuing a bsn, i would certainly hope that it IS all nursing courses, and not gen'l ed., as then it would be rather futile.

May I ask what it is you are basing this opinion on? (that these courses are futile? Have you taken these courses? And you found no value in them whatsoever? If that is true, I feel bad for you).

I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

Do you think certain courses are included in curricula so you know more about that certain topic? It isn't. Every single "general ed" course I took, I can relate right back to my current job as a nurse.

Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

I could go on and on.

My opinion is if someone wants to learn only nursing courses (which encourage memorizing and recall of facts) then he/she is missing out on learning a whole bunch of skills that I feel are paramount to professional practice.

suzy253, RN

3,815 Posts

Specializes in Telemetry/Med Surg.

I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

I could go on and on.

Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.

Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.

Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well. It's just not true. There are alot reasons ppl don't chose to the BSN route and you have no need to feel bad for you as you kindly put it. I'm flourishing in my diploma program and would not have chosen any other route. No pity from you please...I insist. :uhoh3:

nursemike, ASN, RN

1 Article; 2,362 Posts

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).

You also made a comment that asking people their educational level was degrading. Last time I checked, nurses were stripping people butt naked and sticking things in them and up them. Is this less degrading?

Are we clear now??

There are, in fact, perfectly respectful and proper ways of asking, "May I put my finger in your rectum?"

There is no possible way to say, "Let me know your education level and I'll explain it to you..." without offending. A good rule of thumb is whenever you have to tell someone you don't mean to offend them, what you are saying is probably offensive.

In my first clinical, all I had to do was assess my patient's ability to communicate. Simple enough, until it dawns on me that I need to ask a gentleman considerably my senior whether he can read and write in English. Notice that simply asking his education level wouldn't necessarily answer the question, since an unfortunate number of high school grads are functionally illiterate, while a surprising number of high school drop-outs are quite well-read. Then too, a fair number of Ph.D.s can't read or write English well.

So, education level may be one indicator of proficiency, but hardly a guarantee.

Getting back to the OP, having a BSN is good. In this thread, a few ADN's have made light of it, but I think most see the value of it. The program I attend is 2+2, and for me, that seems ideal, but there's much to be said for getting all of your college (I almost said "all of your education," but that would be wrong) out of the way in one fell swoop. Hopefully, it's clear by now that you don't want to suggest to AD nurses that they aren't "real" nurses--goes double for LPN's, by the way. But education is never wasted.

Q.

2,259 Posts

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Surely you don't need computer programming for nursing to learn "think logically, anticipate programs, cause & effect"....maybe you do but a lot of us don't.

Classical literature to read/analyze info, interpret subtlies, articulate & defend views to a public audience. ??? Whatever....whatever it takes for you.

Well, I'm glad you feel you don't need those skills. Yes, I feel I did and yes, I use them every single day as a nurse and as a human being. And yes, you can acquire those skills with other courses as well; I was merely relating how those "futile" courses are in fact, NOT futile. There is more to life out there than nursing, by the way.

Look, we're all pleased as punch you have your BSN degree. What puts me off is those who think this is the only way to go and any other way you don't learn enough, you're not a professional, think less of those with ASN and diploma schooled....and I could go on and on as well. It's just not true. There are alot reasons ppl don't chose to the BSN route and you have no need to feel bad for you as you kindly put it.

Excuse me, but not only did you misquote me but you overintepreted my words. I said I felt that people were missing out on skills. Never once did I express pity for that. What I did feel bad for was people who potentially took those non-nursing courses and felt their time was wasted, both in a financial aspect and a personal one. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I'm flourishing in my diploma program and would not have chosen any other route. No pity from you please...I insist. :uhoh3:

No pity from me, trust me. I'm glad you feel that your diploma program teaches you everything you need to know. But one thing that I do want to remark on is your dismissive attitude towards 4-years degrees. Every time I hear people call out that BSNs belittle diploma, etc, I hear in the same breath how a BSN education is a waste of time or clinically inferior. Maybe YOU find these skills a waste, but I sure don't. And as an educator, I find them a necessity for nurses.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

leslie :-D

11,191 Posts

NURSEMIKE!!!

thank you, thank you and thank you. someone who gets it...

leslie :-D

11,191 Posts

May I ask what it is you are basing this opinion on? (that these courses are futile? Have you taken these courses? And you found no value in them whatsoever? If that is true, I feel bad for you).

I chose the BSN route because it wasn't all nursing courses.

Do you think certain courses are included in curricula so you know more about that certain topic? It isn't. Every single "general ed" course I took, I can relate right back to my current job as a nurse.

Example: a ged ed course I had to take was computer programming. Programming is a highly logical, sequencial process which is 100% directly related to nursing. Designing a computer program taught me how to think logically, anticipate problems, solve them and think in sequence, cause and effect. What was valuable was not learning Pascal, but learning the aforementioned concepts.

Example: I had to take classical literature. In college am I required to memorize and recite Shakespeare, as many opponents to the BSN like to throw out there? Answer: NO. In high school maybe, but not college.

What that course taught me was how to read and analyze information, interpret subtlies and articulate and defend my views to a public audience. Again, 100% directly related to nursing.

I could go on and on.

My opinion is if someone wants to learn only nursing courses (which encourage memorizing and recall of facts) then he/she is missing out on learning a whole bunch of skills that I feel are paramount to professional practice.

a bsn means bachelors of science in nursing ...so yes, i would prefer courses to be oriented to that topic. furthermore, any sort of learning (not ltd to college) should be encouraged and embraced. but if i were to use the same rationales as you, i could say just as easily that it's perfectly ok for my son to play his video games all day for he is mastering eye and hand coordination, learning to strategize and utilizing his math skills. gen'l education is perfect for becoming well rounded but again, i think a bsn should be focused on nsg., for the specialty that it is. and even then, learning in this profession, is lifelong.

leslie

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