the vultures are circling - page 3

Hi Everyone, I had an experience today in the ICU that I work at. One of my patients who was recovering first day post op from a AAA was given a SubQ infusion pump that delivers marcaine to the... Read More

  1. by   banditrn
    In Oct. of '05, I had a Deep Brain Implant for my tremors - I had met the company rep before the surgery, he was present during the surgery to do the testing of the device after they put it in.

    The same rep has been present at some of my follow-up visits, and again when I started having trouble with the device.

    He never showed up in my hospital room.

    I think the doctor should report this rep to the company - they should be out of a job!
  2. by   Cymy
    To those who had a rep there during surgery or afterwards, are you sure it was a sales rep and not a technician? It would be appropriate for a technician to be there to provide technical support, but a sales rep would be a completely different story.
  3. by   Batman24
    Good for you!! You are the kind of nurse I would want taking care of me. And it was also so nice to read about the doctor's outrage. I hope Risk Management or someone on that end calls anc complains to the drug company. They put your hospital at great liability with their lies. Thankfully you were there to protect your patient. Your supervisor also needs to be called into a meeting and told the procedure for circumstances such as these. Her response was very upsetting not to mention shocking.

    Question-If you are having surgery and don't wish to have a drug rep present can you request that and would it be respected?! I would be leery of non-medical personnel looking at me.
  4. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from Cymy
    To those who had a rep there during surgery or afterwards, are you sure it was a sales rep and not a technician? It would be appropriate for a technician to be there to provide technical support, but a sales rep would be a completely different story.
    Sometimes the sales reps do both. They have the necessary technical knowledge and are the only one from the company in a large geographic area.

    But about this particular story...outrageous!
  5. by   SICU Queen
    Quote from Batman24
    Question-If you are having surgery and don't wish to have a drug rep present can you request that and would it be respected?! I would be leery of non-medical personnel looking at me.
    A lot of the times the rep IS a medical professional, but even if they're not, sometimes they need to be present to test the device, or tell the doc how to place it. A lot of surgeons learn the technique that pertains to a particular device from the rep. Most times their presence is necessary.
  6. by   CRNI-ICU20
    To those of you who are voicing the situations where a device rep assists a doctor during a procedure, ie stent placements, or orthopedic devices, pain pumps, pacemakers, defibrillators, etc....I totally agree that their knowledge is very helpful to the doctors....HOWEVER, when those reps come to the hosp. to assist with insertion or operating a device, they are to be cleared by the doctor doing the procedure, AND the administration/materials management dept. who will be supplying and re-ordering
    the devices/implants.
    This was not the case here...
    The doctor was not at all giving his permission for these two reps to even see his patient....they were there to "collect data" directly from the patient, without consent of doctor, patient, or the hospital...
    Had I allowed them to enter that patient's room and gather data, I could have been held accountable for aiding a breach in HIPPA rules.
    This would be tantamount to me leaving a chart open for someone who has no medical reason to read the patient's chart....same difference.
    I don't know what Risk Management will do with this; my guess is that these two reps will be banned from coming into our hospital ever again.
    Implanting a device is much different than entering a patient's room in ICU post op and checking to 'see how it's doing' without a doctor's or patient's consent....
    I had another concern about this, as I thought about it and that is:
    What if drug reps go in to a patient's room, and monkey with a device, without the doctor or nurse being aware, and a bad thing happens to the patient because of it....what if they adjust a dose of something, and because they are not authorized to "chart" on the patient, just don't record what they did anywhere....or what if they increase the threshold on a pacemaker, and don't tell someone....
    See, if they will lie to gain access, do you think they can be trusted with our very vulnerable patients????
    Sometimes, it just takes the wind out of me....truly.
  7. by   Ophelia78
    We had a similar incident at my last hospital. A nurse on our unit noticed a person in plainclothes reading through her patient's chart. She asked him who he was, and he replied he was a medical device rep doing patient research. Did he have permission from the patient, the doc, or the hospital research committee? Nope. He was escorted off the property by Security and banned from returning. That is definitely a HIPAA violation...Good for you for protecting your patient!
  8. by   oramar
    Quote from CRNI-ICU20
    To those of you who are voicing the situations where a device rep assists a doctor during a procedure, ie stent placements, or orthopedic devices, pain pumps, pacemakers, defibrillators, etc....I totally agree that their knowledge is very helpful to the doctors....HOWEVER, when those reps come to the hosp. to assist with insertion or operating a device, they are to be cleared by the doctor doing the procedure, AND the administration/materials management dept. who will be supplying and re-ordering
    the devices/implants.
    This was not the case here...
    The doctor was not at all giving his permission for these two reps to even see his patient....they were there to "collect data" directly from the patient, without consent of doctor, patient, or the hospital...
    Had I allowed them to enter that patient's room and gather data, I could have been held accountable for aiding a breach in HIPPA rules.
    This would be tantamount to me leaving a chart open for someone who has no medical reason to read the patient's chart....same difference.
    I don't know what Risk Management will do with this; my guess is that these two reps will be banned from coming into our hospital ever again.
    Implanting a device is much different than entering a patient's room in ICU post op and checking to 'see how it's doing' without a doctor's or patient's consent....
    I had another concern about this, as I thought about it and that is:
    What if drug reps go in to a patient's room, and monkey with a device, without the doctor or nurse being aware, and a bad thing happens to the patient because of it....what if they adjust a dose of something, and because they are not authorized to "chart" on the patient, just don't record what they did anywhere....or what if they increase the threshold on a pacemaker, and don't tell someone....
    See, if they will lie to gain access, do you think they can be trusted with our very vulnerable patients????
    Sometimes, it just takes the wind out of me....truly.
    Yes, it is not impossible that someone respresenting drug or equipment company could be involved in patient surgery. However, that would all be set up before the proceedure and all consents would be signed and nursing staff would be aware of special circumstances. I second all the people that say that recognizing the situation and calling them on it was a real standup bit of nursing advocacy.

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