Should I Have Stepped In??

[leesespieces]

So last night right as we were about to fall asleep we heard what sounded like fireworks outside our apt. Then we heard people screaming. We thought it may have been gunfire since we also saw the lights of a police car a minute later. So we go outside to see what happened and find that 2 people were shot like 100 feet from our building!!! There was a young man lying on the ground, bleeding and someone said he was not breathing. ( The other guy I think was shot in the arm but was walking around and talking) The police were there but no one was doing compressions on this guy. It looked like there was a family member sitting next to him and I though I saw him give rescue breaths once. Then I heard him say he might have been breathing.

Now I am not a nurse yet (7 weeks to go) but I am CPR certified. I didn't step in and offer to do CPR for a few reasons. They had started to put up the crime scene tape and it was only a matter of a minute before the ambulance arrived. I never got real close but it looked bloody and I didn't have any gloves or anything and I don't know this guy from Adam. I've never had to actually do CPR. I guess I was just plain scared! Plus I don't know the possible ramifications if something went wrong. Would the Good Samaritan Act protect me? Was I obligated by law being healthcare provider CPR certified and a CNA to do something? I know the ambulance got there right away but now that I am thinking about it today I am getting upset and thinking no matter what I should have done SOMETHING or at least told the police I could try to help if they wanted me to. What do you think" I really feel terrible

[casualjim]

OP: You did the right thing, the scene was not safe (safety is in the eye of the beholder)

Jill: There's nothing I can tell you. No matter what I say you'll stand firm in your convictions, and that's cool. I can tell you that I've felt safer caring for someone during a firefight in combat, than I have on a city street with the police there. The op is Chicago (a toddlin' town right) she didnt feel safe, her standard of what's safe and whats not safe is the only one that counts. it's not for us to judge. I was home in bed more than likely.

ps Tazzi, will you be my preceptor?

[TazziRN, RN]

ps Tazzi, will you be my preceptor?

I'd be honored!

[EMSChild]

My eleven years experience doesn't mean I do CPR every day, and to tell you the truth I always forget the ratio of breaths to compressions - but does it really matter if I do 5 compressions to 1 breath or 10 compressions to 2 breaths? No. Experience has nothing to do with it. Just push and blow.

Please take a CPR refresher! You'll be a better help to your patients and the random shootings you care for.

[kukukajoo, LPN]

Jill- have you heard of the saying, "Seek first to understand, then to be understood?"

Please stop trying to ram your justification down our throats and try to understand the OP a little better. What you would do and your level of experence is not hers. Also you are assuming (among many other things) that the victim down needed lifesaving measures. This may not be the case. Please, please read all the input in this thread, it contains some valuable lessons from some very seasoned and experienced professionals.

Remember- the scene was being taped off already, the police were not adminstering aid, and the EMS had arrived within a minute. trust me, when you hear gunshots, it takes more than a minute to recover from the shock of that alone. A crime scene being taped off is not a line anyone should cross as valuable evidence can be totally contaminated or destroyed and kill the prosecutions chances for a conviction. There are many ways you can look at this from- as an ems, a nurse, a cop, a prosecutor, a judge, a jury, etc.

Tazzi- cudos to you for being so professional in your response!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cattitude]

omg i cannot even believe you just said that. she's too green? so when would it be a good time and environment for her "first one"? you say "first one" like it's some performance. it was a life. no one is going to care how nervous you are (even experienced nurses still get nervous) or if you miscount on your compressions.

yes i said it. she's never done it in a controlled situation let alone a possible unsafe, bloody one. so she should risk her own life to maybe, just maybe save one?

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[color=#483d8b]call me selfish but i wouldn't do it. not in this situation. she'd be way too nervous and that could cost her a huge mistake, possibly her health or worse, her life.

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[kukukajoo, LPN]

I second this!! And if you don't think it matters, then you should beware!! IT DOES MATTER!!! Its called the standard of care! You were trained to do CPR right but didn't, and the pt died, then you become liable possibly for the death because you breached the standard of care- you are a trained nurse and required to uphold those standards. If you dont know a procedure, then you should not perform it because if you act incorrect then the Good Sam Law will not save you.

Please take a CPR refresher! You’ll be a better help to your patients and the random shootings you care for.

[Cattitude]

jill:

c) you are entitled to your opinions, and this board is all about allowing us to express opinions, but that does not give you the right to kick the (*&$! out of someone who didn't know what to do. it would be one thing if she stood by and deliberately yelled to the rafters "i don't want to get involved!" but that ain't what happened.....she didn't know if she should have gotten involved. the mods are probably going to ask me to edit this one but i've gotta say it: i feel sorry for any students or new nurses who have to come to you for questions. you're jumping all over the op about her supposed lack of compassion but you don't seem to know the meaning of the word yourself.

hey tazzi, i like you more and more with each post. i'm glad you said it with no editing.

op: you did the right thing. you listened to your instincts.

rule #1 of search and rescue, lifegaurding, ems, or whatever: never create two victims. a dead or injured rescue person is no use to anybody, especially the original victim.

i'm one of those people who will dive in and help (aka: adrenaline junkie), if i'm needed and it is reasonably safe to do so of course. but i will not endanger my life senselessly. , )

well said. i agree wholeheartedly about the not creating 2 victims part. and about the diving in and helping? i think that most of us in many situations would do the same. we don't need to play superhero to be the caring nurses we are.

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[Agnus]

You should be ashamed of yourself; and so should all of the posters that supported your cowardness. That was someone's child, brother, or father. And you said you are sure the amulance was only "minutes away"? Well alot can happen in those "minutes". Like you could have helped. It's really sad when someone who can save a life doesn't just because they are afraid of legal ramifications. If anything, there should be legal ramifications for people who can help but refuse to. And to all of you who are going to post now and say that I am being to rough on the OP, this was a life or death situation, and she could have saved a life.[/quote

You are obvioulsy very passionate about this issue. Perhaps you have lost someone because a bystander did nothing perhaps not.

You see I have no right to assume that you lost someone any more than you have a right(no matter how passionate you are) to shame someone and call them a coward.

You have a righ to your feelings and beliefs. You do not have a right (nor do any of us have permission from this board) to attack another poster as you have done.

You do not know if she could have saved a life. You do not know if she would have been allowd by the police. I have yet to meet a police officer who was not CPR trained. There was likely a good reason it was not done by them.

[PANurseRN1]

Please take a CPR refresher! You'll be a better help to your patients and the random shootings you care for.

BWAH!

[Flare, ASN, BSN]

It's my understanding that law enforcement are never supposed to give first aid or cpr due to possible litigation. They call for the ambulance and secure the scene until they arrive. I'm not sure if this is 100% true in all states, but that is what I have been told by officers in my area.

it may depend on your area -where i live, all the police officers are cpr and EMT trained and certified. They are first on a scene and can begin to stabilize a critical patient until EMS takes over. I have been on many scenes where the police were performing cpr until the ambulance got there.

[leesespieces]

HI everyone,

Sorry I haven't been able to post a reply over the weekend. I had no idea this thread would get such heated reactions. But I am glad that for the most part everyone remained respectful. I am not going to take Jill's comments to heart. I know that I did what was best for me at the time. I know that the only regret I have is not simply letting the officers know my credentials and offering help if it was needed. I believe that even if I had more than likely I would not have been allowed to enter the scence. This experience will serve me well in the future; that is a definite.

And to answer Jill's question as to why I asked for advice if I thought I did the right thing.... I am a student nurse/soon-to-be new grad. I question just about everything I do.... it is simply my inexperience.

Anyway, I really value all the input I've gotten, not only in this thread, but each time I come to the site. There are some wonderful people out there, great mentors too!! Thanks again!

[brissie]

You did the right thing. Trust your instincts. As a new nurse there may be some things you experience in the clinical setting that your instincts tell you you are not comfortable doing. It will be your duty to tell your preceptor or another nurse that, hey I'm new and not yet comfortable doing this would you mind showing me etc. Similarly with this unfortunate incident. It sounded like you were very uncomfortable with the whole situation, which is well justified. Stepping into a situation like that can be extremely dangerous, the number one rule in prehospital emergency care is safety to yourself, then to others, then to the patient. Even though the police were on scene it may not yet have been secured. Often times in incidents such as this the Fire and EMS crews are often instructed to standby at a distance until the scene has been totally made safe. You are no way at fault.