Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ?? - page 17

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been... Read More

  1. by   nurs4kids
    I think some are missing the big picture here..

    remember back in elementary school?? remember the bullies?? you rarely saw two bullies fighting..they were both cowards, therefore had to side together to succeed at their bullying.

    Flores was a bully. MANY nursing instructor's are bullies. They couldn't be on the same side because the instructor's had what Flores wanted...power. No, the instructor's did NOT by any means deserve to die. Flores is NOT by any means a martyr. However, he brought to light a big problem.

    I attended college on and off for 6yrs before entering nursing. NEVER once was i treated as an idiot until I entered nursing school. Yes, I am STILL bitter about what I had to put up with in order to graduate. Six years later, I still can not see the benefit in treating students in the way many are treated in nursing school. Did I ever consider killing an instructor? Not seriously, but I'm sure at some points I hated some enough that had I not been stable, I may have entertained the thought. I did not have the responsibilities Flores had...I didn't walk in his shoes. But, at the same time, I notice he had weapons worth over $2K with him that day, yet in his letter he's concerned about money. You've got to wonder how many other unnecessary things he spent money on...and continued to blame other's for his shortcomings.

    I don't know..the more I read, the more I think..
    I only feel sympathy for Flores in that he was in obvious pain...
    I feel deep sympathy for the instructor's and their families..
    those women did what we do every day..
    they got up, kissed the kids and hubby "bye"...
    probably told them they'd see them later...
    and set out to put in another day at work...
    they did not deserve to die..they weren't the problem.
    They were only tools in the game of nursing...tools that perpetuate the attitudes of the nursing gods..

    We can argue all day over who was wrong...who was right..
    Flores is the ultimate wrongdoer....
    nothing justifies murder (unless you "f" with my kids )

    BUT..we can not let this pass by saying "he was an isolated nutcase"..
    there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..
    There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..
    and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

    However, I do have to add one more thing. I feel I graduated from the best nursing school in my area. I despise these instructor's that bring students onto my unit and the instructor and student's are not prepared. I have little or no respect for the schools these people are associated with...I shudder if my boss hires a nurse from this school because I know this nurse will have to be taught nursing in orientation..as if she/he has never opened a nursing book.

    So, I guess what I'm trying to say..I still think the hardest schools turn out the best nurses...
    should we lessen the stress so that the weaker can cope??
    or do we allow nature to prevail...asssuring survival for only the stronger??
    It all depends on what we want for our "profession".
    Last edit by nurs4kids on Nov 1, '02
  2. by   Mkue
    Originally posted by nurs4kids
    there IS an atmosphere of superiority among nursing instructors..
    There ARE many cases of unnecessary stress placed on students..
    and if we ignore this guy..there is bound to be another one follow his lead.

    This is so true nurs4kids... very unnecessary stress.. well said.
  3. by   abrenrn
    I agree that real educational standards should never be lowered. In my undergraduate program I took a physiology class that was a killer, had to work my ass off to do well - but I knew the info would come in handy. But, too many students were flunking this class, they stopped giving it to nursing students and (upper division school) decided to make A&P a prereq instead. Note some of the failed students had passed A&P before coming to this program.

    This class was hard in that it was a rigourous class. The same standards had to be met by all students to pass, get As, etc. (though there was a curve).

    I got through that fine. I was almost flunked by a clinical instructor who dislike me because I had disagreed with her in class a semester earlier. She set up standards for me that differed from other students. I ended up keeping my head down, mouth shut, with the added burden of horrendous abdominal cramping (never before experienced). I did not complain when I was criticised where another student was praised. A few of the students seemed to notice this, but generally stayed away.

    That was only one clinical, thank god. The others were reasonable. But it came very close to pushing me out of nursing school.

    So, my question, what are the standards we want for nursing students? Shut up, keep head down, just try to endure or academic rigor, good clinical skills?
  4. by   abrenrn
    I felt I graduated from a very good nursing school - the physiology class alone made my masters physiology class a walk in the park. I do not feel I benefited in anyway from that clinical experience - other than perhaps as a model of how nurses are expected to act when they go out to work.
  5. by   abrenrn
    This is a quote from one of the stories about Robert Flores I believe the one on the students reactions, etc. The paragraph is a straight copy and paste from the original text:

    Schenkel had been talking to a group of students in the lounge about Flores and whether he should be asked to leave the program. She didn't know he was nearby listening.

    The article goes on to say that he told her to watch her back.

    I wonder why she did not worry about her job instead. I believe there are significant issues of student confidentiallity that were violated in this case: open discussion with other students about whether or not a student, not thought to present, should be asked to leave; a lounge area where anyone, including the student discussed, could overhear what was said.

    I had read these articles earlier (I do try to read all available informations) and kept my thoughts to myself out of conideration for those who are hurting. Nevertheless, I think any relevant information should be taken into account in this debate.
  6. by   Youda
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Youda, will all due respect, I can understand bullying and NOT agree with it. To state that I don't understand a topic because I don't agree with it is really not justifiable.


    Also, the point to a debate or discussion is not to "win" but to hear other's views, and challenge their beliefs. I am secure in my beliefs so I will be vocal about them. No one wants to have the board to themselves to talk "unopposed" as you suggest. It seems that when we oppose YOU is where the conflict arises. Life is boring when we all agree.
    No, it doesn't have anything to do with bowing out because someone disagrees with me. It has to do with my viewpoint not being valued or taking seriously.

    Let's look at a few of the more sarcastic comments to my posts:

    " would never have fathomed however, that WE, as nurses, as educators, as females, would be sympathizing with him. "

    "I thought I was a bleeding heart..... listen"


    I am talking about a sociological behavior. A verifiable, statistical, observable syndrome with specific signs and symptoms. I offer that as an explanation, to gain understanding, to provide solutions, as a prevention to other terrible incidents like this.

    Granted, the above comments are far from active "flaming" but it still holds an element of disrespect and nullification of my opinions. Some say, stay, we value your opinion. And, for those, I am grateful that you found value in my viewpoint. But, I will not stay on a topic when there is a subtle ridicule of my thoughts. If you think that is leaving because someone doesn't agree with me, then you are sadly mistaken. I don't leave because of disagreement, I leave because I don't care for the tactics being used to silence: ridicule, sarcasm, minimizing, and failure to see any value in my viewpoints.

    Granted, I am hyper-sensitive to this right now. I am coming off a severe episode of bullying. I am not recovered. I have PTSD as a result of it. I have contemplated suicide because of it. I am not the personality type to turn my anger on others, like Flores, instead I turn it on myself. I know all about how a target is driven, bullies, harrass, invalidated, labelled, and punished to the point that the bully destroys you or you destroy yourself.

    Yeah. I know all about this. Far too intimately, in fact. So, excuse me if I take exception to sarcasm and invalidating me anywhere in my life. If you think I don't have the guts to stick it out SIMPLY because someone doesn't agree with me, honey, you are sadly wrong. I've put up with slams far better than you could ever dream up, and I survived them (just barely). No, dear, the problem here is that I just REFUSE to allow it anymore.

    If you wanted HONEST EXCHANGE of ideas here, you'd try to ask questions or see another viewpoint. But, this silly idea, this ludicrous idea that some of you have that "unbalanced" explains this entire shooting is just plain, sadly, ignorant. Your world is composed of labels and pigeon-holes. God help you if you ever see that there is rarely one answer, right or wrong, to anything.

    Now that I've really spouted off, I really am leaving this thread.
  7. by   Q.
    Youda, my comment that you pulled out was not sarcastic - those in fact, were my feelings, my utter disbelief at what I was hearing. I am fairly confident that the victim's families would probably mirror my reaction. That is not to say they are ignorant on social problems. It simply means they don't agree with your perspective. You are not the only one who has strong feelings on this subject. I am sorry you feel the need to bow out of the discussion, and I'm sorry I don't buy the "bullying" social theory as causation for murder; that does not mean I don't take your thoughts seriously. It simply means I don't agree with this "bullying" as applied to this particular case. You're not the only one whose been bullied. TRUST me on this. I'm sorry that you find my disagreement with you as being sarcastic and undermining and apparently disrespectful. But Youda, if you look at it, it's simply disagreement. I don't agree with you. It's really that simple. I don't think you're a bad person, I don't think YOU are ignorant. There's no hidden agenda to silence you. I just don't agree with you. Nothin' more to it than that.

    Helen, you raised some points about the college's responsibility, and why they didn't act. It seems to me that the students and instructors, were in fact the ones who were bullied here, and rather than becoming homicidal/suicidal, they simply became paralyzed.

    Again, I firmly believe that sometimes, just SOMETIMES, people are just plain bad, and just sometimes, the only thing to blame is the person who committed the act. Not a college, not a community, not a social theory; but the individual. Enough excuses. Let's be accountable for our actions.
    Last edit by Susy K on Nov 1, '02
  8. by   Q.
    Originally posted by abrenrn
    This is a quote from one of the stories about Robert Flores I believe the one on the students reactions, etc. The paragraph is a straight copy and paste from the original text:

    Schenkel had been talking to a group of students in the lounge about Flores and whether he should be asked to leave the program. She didn't know he was nearby listening.

    The article goes on to say that he told her to watch her back.

    I wonder why she did not worry about her job instead. I believe there are significant issues of student confidentiallity that were violated in this case: open discussion with other students about whether or not a student, not thought to present, should be asked to leave; a lounge area where anyone, including the student discussed, could overhear what was said.

    Schenkel was a fellow nursing student, discussing a classmate with other classmates. She was not an instructor.
  9. by   Mkue
    Originally posted by Youda

    Now that I've really spouted off, I really am leaving this thread.
    I do enjoy your posts Youda, think I'll move on too .. sigh.


    Have a good night!

    Marie
  10. by   rncountry
    Abrenrn, she was a classmate, not an instuctor. However I would say that the discussing of other's actions is not a stretch either. Smacks of the breakroom where one nurse rants against another for being a poor nurse, for whatever reason. There truly are nurses who do a piss poor job, I work with some. However issues I have do not belong in the breakroom, they belong with the people who need to know and have the ability to do something about it. I believe that if the student had pressing concerns she should have gone to the program director. She states she felt threatened, I would have too, given the same circumstances. What I don't understand however, is why valid concerns were not taken to the appropriate people. Didn't get anything from the program director, then keep going.
    It is all so sad. I see pieces of this, that simply minic what I see at work, what I experienced in school, what I have experienced at work.
    Youda, while you may be touchy right now, part of the healing process comes when you are able to relate what happened to you, And to be able to tell others they have overstepped boundries. If you choose to leave the thread it is of course, your choice. But may I suggest that instead feelings get worked out? This is an emotional issue for many, there are plenty of others who are reading but not posting. Likely there are others who feel exactly how you feel. I went through what I know recognize as bullying when I worked in the Neuro ICU several years ago. It took me a good long time to recognize that I was not some screwball nurse with nary a critical thinking skill in my head. And it also took a long time for me to be able to listen to any type of sarcasm or such did not totally set me off. I think for anyone who has not experienced how very badly this can effect someone it is nearly impossible for that person to understand those feelings. I have been fired for attempting to ensure appropriate reporting was done when two LTC residents were obviously physically abused. You know that, but that was several years after I worked in the Neuro unit. By that time I was no longer willing to shut my mouth and keep my head down. But I would tell anyone who cares to listen that the constant bullying, intimidation, and general pure nastiness I encountered in the Neuro unit was as difficult if not more so than the firing and subsequent lawsuit I filed, because this was done by people I had expected to help me learn, and to support me when needed. I had no such expectation from corporate suits who were attempting to cover up abuse of a 105 year old woman and her 95 year old roommate. It can be a very slow healing process to come out of a time in your life when everything you do is questioned, nastiness and sarcasm directed towards you become nothing but normal. I have found however, that this board, as rancous as it can become, has been the biggest support I have ever had as a nurse. When I finally was able to tell other nurses that I had been fired, under what circumstances, and that my employers then went after my license, it was as if the weight of the world had come off my shoulders. Then miracle upon miracle I was not condemned. Instead I was given support and caring that I had never experienced in the real world of nursing. Let us become your comfort, your friends. Let us tell you that you did nothing wrong. Let us help you heal, I guarantee it is possible. I won't tell you it will be easy. At every turn you will expect for someone to tell you that your feelings are not valid, that you shouldon't have done this or shouldn't have done that. But in truth what will happen is that the vast majority of the nurses on this board will understand, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN THERE THEMSELVES. They may not be willing to share what happened to them, at least not yet, but they will recognize the same things in their own career. Why do I say that? Because most of us have. Once upon a time I called Horizonal violence, the dragon in the basement of nursing. The one we all try to keep at bay, least it come for us. The one we don't want to acknowledge is there, while the smell from that dragon hangs over the profession like a pig farm.
    It is a natural response to lash out right now, but all that accomplishes is angry feelings that get shoved inside again. And I think that has happened enough to you. I was going to pm you and let you know how very much I understand, but then I decided that whatever I had to say could be said publicly. I recall a time after I was fired that I felt so utterly lost that I could barely stand myself let alone anyone else. I felt ready to give up period. I recall my sister saying to me," Of course you will make it through this, you are the John Wayne of the family." What she didn't understand right then was that it was a role I didn't want anymore. I didn't feel like I could fight for anyone let alone myself. The thing that made me feel different was this very board. To be able to go here and read the stories of other nurses who had gone through the same thing. To know that there was nothing wrong with me or my skills or the real need to be able to take care of myself before I considered taking care of other people. Understand I care what happens to you. I care whether you decide to stay in this profession or not. And I care enough that it doesn't matter to me if you throw in the towel and walk away, I will still always consider you a nurse and so will many others. I still have times when I think I don't want to fight anymore, that I am tired of fighting for my profession to be what I know it can be. The days I drive home and wonder what the hell I am still doing in this career field. But I still seem somehow to come back to it because I always have this need to be that advocate, not only for my patients, but myself and my collegues.
    I hope that you at least look in on this thread and read this. I know you are hurting. Let us support you.
  11. by   abrenrn
    I stand corrected. She was a student having a discussion about a fellow student she did not want to have hear the discussion and, unfortunately did. She did not seem to think there was anything wrong with her behavior.

    She had gone to many faculty members with her concerns. None seemed to do anything.

    I find that interesting. As will the lawyers.
    Last edit by abrenrn on Nov 2, '02
  12. by   abrenrn
    I too will leave with Youda. It is my experience that this is the point where people will really have fun slamming what I say.

    Why is it that others wait until someone says they are leaving a thread to rebut things the poster has said much earlier?

    Just another thing for you to think about. If you read past the first sentence in your rush to respond. I also find it interesting when I see what people read AND what they don't read - or choose to ignore because it might interfere with their argument.

    And yes, I could read that letter and empathize. Deeply. In fact, much more than I empathize with the comments coming from the school.

    Did any student ever treat him as if he was a human being, a fellow student? It doesn't sound like it.
  13. by   mark_LD_RN
    Originally posted by OBNURSEHEATHER
    Um, as far as I'm concerned he lost his right to have his preferences catered to.

    I'm sure those instructors "preferred" not to be murdered.

    Heather
    DAMN RIGHT YOU ARE AGAIN!

    IT JUST SICKENS ME TO SEE PEOPLE SYMPATHIZING WITH A OUT RIGHT MURDERER. HOW LOW CAN WE GO

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