Nurses Talk To Nurses. Doctors Talk To Doctors

[madwife2002]

Nurses talk to Nurses and Doctors talk to Doctors, is this a general understanding of the circle of life within your health care facility? Or is it true to think that Doctors can express their discontent of a nurse but it is not considered acceptable for this to be reciprocated.

Unbelievable within the 21^st century America that nurses are unable to talk to doctors about the way they behave or their attitude. Is this because we are a female dominated profession or because we are considered the second class citizens of health care professionals?

Are we considered experts of our field or is it assumed that we are 'just nurses' by the medical profession?

Last year a MD openly shouted and verbally abused me at a MDT meeting, in front of guests who were observing our quality meeting, the tirade went on for what felt like 20 mins, twice I asked the MD to step outside the room so we could discuss the matter privately but he refused to even acknowledge I had spoken. My boss was present in the room and said nothing. After the meeting was over, my boss asked us to stay behind then actually apologized for the behavior of the MD, a couple of the MDT members actually cried they were so upset about the whole incident. I informed my manager that it was not acceptable that she should apologize for the behavior of the MD, and we discussed why she didn't step in to stop the meeting.

Later on that day one of the MD's nurses (NP) visited the unit, I told her that her boss was a pig. I incorrectly assumed we were having a private conversation, and she reported me to the MD who was horrified. Not only did he report me to my director but went to the CEO to complain. I was giving a PIP and the MD informed me he was disappointed with me using such horrible language!

Lesson learned it is ok to shout, scream, bully and intimidate a nurse manager but dare that manager express how she feels, instant write up! Now I am not condoning my behavior I should not have voiced my opinion of the MD but I am only human. I have to say though we did manage to sit down and discuss how we the Dr and myself would behave in the future and our relationship went from bad to really good, but at what cost. I can only imagine if I had told him what I really thought about him, where I would be today.

I know every day in the hospital environment and other health care facilities, Nurses are being verbally abused and bullied by the medical profession and I do not believe we are given the support we deserve. Outside in the real world not one of us would put up with such horrendous treatment, not towards ourselves and certainly not allow our children to be treated this way. I would go as far to say that a fair few of us are actually nervous and frightened of our Doctors, and there are not many of us who would actually challenge or stand up to them. How many of you feel that you would actually be supported if you did challenge a doctor?

I know that some Doctors will actually show their anger and frustration towards you in a public area, increasing your embarrassment and shame.

Nine times out of ten, there has been a process breakdown which has caused the doctor some frustration and they often want to take their anger out on the nurse who is looking after that patient at that time, even though they might not have been involved and are at the end of the line. Knowing it is not your fault does not help you when you are being publicly humiliated at the hands of an irate doctor who refuses listen to excuses.

I have witnessed doctors do this to co-workers and then march straight to the manager's office to complain, the manager in turn calls the poor Nurse who is already distressed into her 'office' to discuss why the doctor is so upset with them.

The excuses often make me laugh and I am sure you may have heard these once or twice in your career

'You know what he is like' (so this makes it alright then)

'He was on call last night' (and this is my problem why)

'Don't worry he shouts at everybody, he'll be fine tomorrow' (Oh goody I won't be shouted at again this week)

And the best of them all ...

'Don't take it personally' (I didn't notice that the tirade was directed towards anybody else)

We are experts in our profession and it is our profession, yet we are constantly belittled and dismissed as though we are still 'handmaidens'. So we must ask ourselves why we continue to let this happen. There are more of us than there are of doctors so why do we not stand together and be counted.

There are many of us who are frightened of losing our jobs if we upset the doctor, we do not have anywhere to really go to get support to manage a bullying co-worker yet alone a doctor. I believe if I did some research the top answers for why so many of us would not challenge, would be

• Fear of losing our job
• Lack of support from the hierarchy
• Fear of being written up or placed in some sort of discipline
• Being Black listed from other health care facilities

I am not suggesting that all Doctors are bullies and tyrants but the ones who are out there cause a great deal of discontent and havoc, most of them are allowed to continue this behavior for years and it is not contested. I do not have the answers, I wish I did I could write a book on it and it would be a best seller.

All I suggest is you do not lose your cool remain calm, ask the Dr to speak privately, try hard not to retaliate.

After all the doctor may have been on call last night, he shouts equally at everybody at some point, you know what he is like just don't take it personally!!!!

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

I am pleased so many of you seem to have managers that stick up for you and support you, it is so many steps in the right direction.

Unfortunately I still think there are many places out there who do not support their nurses

[Who?Me?]

I find that the docs with the worst behavior actually are stunted socially-never learned how to play well with others.

Redirection will work with some, flat out telling others to stop talking to you like that this instant works with others, and others will just get written up and brought before their peers in a review board and counseled.

I don't care how tired, overworked, underappreciated you are Ms/Mr Doctor--I do not get spoken to that way and neither does my staff.

I also would have never spoken to anyone who is employed by that MD other than in a professional manner.

Remember the hospital is just like middle school or high school--everyone is in a click and talking behind each other's backs even when you don't think they are.

[Julius Seizure]

There were signs all over the nurse's station saying "No drinks allowed".

When he came out, his coffee cup was gone and I was trying not to smirk. He looked at me and said "Where is my coffee?!?". "The charge nurse threw it away" I said. "We can't have drinks at the nurse station." /QUOTE]

Our charge nurse will throw the nurses drinks away but if its a docs coffee, she will let it slide. What! Rules are rules people!

[Melina]

I love this thread! The LTACH where I work has a lot of the issues you all speak of. I am planning on taking on this issue for my master's comps. I was inspired by the reports by the ACCN (Relevant Research) about reducing medical errors by speaking up when another professional is acting inappropriately or dangerously.

[lorirn58]

I also would have never spoken to anyone who is employed by that MD other than in a professional manner.

Please do not 'admonish' the OP on this point as she already explained her reaction to all of us. Try to understand instead.

BTW, not 'click'. The correct word is 'clique'.

[royhanosn]

nothing has changed, nothing will. For all the BS marketing about health care coming into the 21st century, the relationship between dr & nurse has not and will not change. Dr are self employed and employed by the hospital, They paid for the privilege to practise at that hospital. If you approach with out a whinny attitude and mother superior ideas, you will get along fine. Remember their butt is on the line when they sign a patient for a procedure or drugs.

[TexasDew]

I cannot believe that the administration let this happen at all!!! In the 1980's one doctor yelled at me at the front desk in front of staff and visitors...it never happened again. I was not the person he was angry with but I was the one he choose to yell at. I immediately looked at him and said "everyone is looking at you make a Jack-ass out of yourself" and invited him to move to a private area. He turned red and walked off the unit. He later apologized and he showed more respect for me throughout our time working together. I am not somebody who considers what the consequences of my actions when these things happen, I just do it. Yes I could have gotten fired but I will not allow anyone to degrade me that way.

Until nurses start standing up for their rights (and if that involves filing a lawsuit) then these things will continue to happen. I am happy to see the comments about those who have stood up for themselves in one way or the other. Doctors are not 'gods' even if they think they are. It is time that they learn this is not acceptable behavior and the only way that will happen is if nurses fight back. Don't pick a fight but don't take the abuse.

[royhanosn]

ego. in todays age of so called progressive thinking, we are still the master/servant. Unless you are good working relationship with the doctor, and contribute ideas he can work with...well, think ahead. Dont be so female, start developing a thick skin. The doctor is the one, and something tells me I wrote this a few post back. His ass is on the line. To spell is out: his signature.

[calivianya, BSN, RN]

Not everywhere is like that. My workplace has a zero tolerance policy for any sort of lateral violence beyond employees, including MD to RN, RN to MD, RT to RN, MD to CNA, etc. If anyone talks to you disrespectfully, regardless of your status or their status, you can report them and it WILL be addressed. As a result, I have never had a bad encounter with a MD - granted, I am still a nursing student and work as a CNA, but even in the student/CNA role I can talk to MDs and expect to be treated respectfully. I would personally find another job in a facility that does not tolerate lateral violence if I had your experience, but that is just me. I realize it's not always possible to leave your current job, for whatever reason.

[docomo]

I'm a male nurse, and believe it or not, us men encounter the same problems. Last year I took a job an ER. After only a few months on the job things were beginning to look grim. On several occasions, I'd observed the ER director, a woman, being verbally abusive and bullying her nurses. (yelling at people in front of others, scolding or talking to nurses like she was their mommy) It was as if her behavior hinged on her mood, also, her bad attitude seemed to bring out the worst in some of the other nurses and doctors.

Once the situation became clear in my mind, I resigned and started looking for a new job. It's just not worth the stress that these kind of people will put you through if you stay, and nothing you can do or say is going to change them. I was unemployed for a few months, but now have a nursing job that I love and I'm working with great people.

My advice is for you or for anyone in your situation is to walk away from any job where the doctors or supervisors treat you in any way that is less than professional. If you feel the need to let them know why you left your job, wait until after you have a new job somewhere else, and write a professional and informative letter to someone in the executive level of the organization.

[GFocker92]

I'm a fairly new nurse, I finished school about a year ago and have been working for around 6 months, and I really like my job, the nurses I work with are all very friendly, professional, and willing to help, some of the doctors can be a little different. The other day after a LONG 12 hour shift, a patient asked me about what a urostomy tube was, she was a little confused as she already had one. Somehow or another I mixed up urostomy with nephrostomy when I was explaining, little did I know, the urologist had stepped into the room quietly behind me, and proceeded to groan, make a snide comment (in front of the patient). I realized my mistake apologized and said I mixed up the urostomy tube with nephrostomy and got out of there. What really annoyed me was how he did this in front of the patient, a simple "You're thinking of a nephrostomy" would have been sufficient and more professional. I've seen some doctors come into a patient room (for the first time) not even introduce themselves, put a stethoscope on the patients chest and walk out without even a nod. I also saw a doctor scold a grown woman like she was a child about not following up with a particular treatment that was VERY expensive without even considering that not everyone can afford a single treatment that costs hundreds or thousands of dollars each month.

[Miss Lizzie]

I feel fortunate that abusive behavior is not tolerated in my hospital. Several months ago a doctor called me into one of my patients' rooms and started screaming at me and belittling me in front of my patient and his adult daughter. It turned out that the patient's daughter had been upset with the doctor because of lack of communication on his part. He decided to call me in the room and scream at me in an attempt to make me the scapegoat.

I told him that I understood what he was saying and attempted to end his tirade and leave the room and he followed me into the hall and yelled at me all the way down the hall and back to the nurse's station.

Shortly after that, my charge nurse noticed that I looked upset and called me into the med room to have a private conversation with her and my supervisor.

My supervisor reported the doctor to our manager and filled out an incident report about the doctor's behavior. My manager reported him to the medical director. I haven't seen that doctor back at my hospital since that incident.

Also, I found out later that the patient's daughter didn't fall for his rotten attempt to put blame on me. She went up to him and told him that he had no right to talk to anyone so disrespectfully.