Magnet, polarization, ageism, classism - page 3

The more I think about being an out of work RN because I lack experience and graduated from an Associate/Diploma school makes me wonder about the whole magnet status idea. After doing much reading, I... Read More

  1. by   linearthinker
    Quote from edga
    I should have quoted that to the original article. I am not trying to say that BSN educated nurses are any less than ADN's. They are certainly equal. I am just kind of annoyed of the preference they are getting.
    With respect, you are missing the point. They are not equal, which is why one is preferred over the other. That is not to say that an ADN prepared nurse cannot be outstanding and have much to offer her unit, only that she is not as highly educated as her BSN colleague. There is no getting around that. Many will make the argument that those extra courses are not valuable or necessary to excellence in nursing practice, but that is neither here nor there. One candidate in this scenario has them, and the degree that goes with them, the other does not. The RN with the college degree has a competitive advantage over then one that does not. You can lament it, or you can accept it and make your own way. Good luck in either case.
  2. by   edgarandersonrn
    I appreciate everyone's response. I should have probably asked the question, "How is a BSN a better candidate for employment than an ADN or Diploma Nurse?" In my experience over the past few years I have had the pleasure to meet and work with plenty of nurses; both good and bad, both ADN and BSN. There has been no difference in the quality of care performed by these nurses due to their education. There has, however, been a difference in their skill-set because of experience and the additional certifications they have obtained over the years.

    Respectfully, linearthinker, an MSN with a few classes more in their arsenal of education is a better nurse or educator than you and has greater intellectual prowess?

    I am currently enrolled in a RN-BSN program.
    My intent is to become a Nurse Practitioner.

    Now I am going to go read all of the previous responses.
  3. by   nursel56
    That report from the Institute of Medicine was basically an opinion piece from a committee. It uses a whole lot of words to say that an Associate's degree or diploma nurse isn't smart enough to learn new technologies or figure out how to work a computer. It buries in a lot of verbiage the idea that you need a BSN to understand how Medicare works or how to determine whether or not a patient's insurance is up to date.

    How in the world would they get a workforce of 80% BSN nurses in 9 years? What do they propose doing with all those ADN programs out there? They came flat out and recommended the federal government refuse financial aid to diploma students and give it to the BSN students instead as a way of forcing them to die on the vine.

    They did acknowledge that it would take "a few years" to build the capacity for all the students needing to hurry up and get their BSN as well. . . so non-BSN nurses are left with maybe 3 or 4 years to finish. Then they recommend that the nurse work-force must become more diverse, but the community college route is the only possible way people of limited means can become an RN, that same RN who passes the same NCLEX and goes to work and doesn't harm people or have a statistical difference in patient outcome.

    To those who say just go get your Pell grant etc like it's easy - it is not and it's getting harder by the day with the economy. My daughter is in a physical therapy program in college and I know this firsthand.

    Much of the impetus is the standard "being better educated is a good thing" Yes it is! Do you have to leave your job and devote hours and hours away from home and family to get it? I don't hear hospitals clamoring for the removal of their ADN nurses, but having a beefed up inservice system could teach a lot of the things listed in the report. Here is a link to the report if anyone is interested.

    http://iom.edu/Reports/2010/The-Futu...Education.aspx
    Last edit by nursel56 on Mar 5, '11
  4. by   Old.Timer
    OK, I'll admit it, my reasons for choosing BSN over diploma had nothing to do with thinking I would be a more skilled or qualified nurse. I was all about the social aspect and fun of college. Drinking beer at fraternity parties sounded much more appealing than living in a nurses dorm under the 24/7 watchful eye of humorless old maid nurses.
  5. by   LegzRN
    My ADN cost 3x more than my bsn
  6. by   llg
    Quote from LegzRN
    My ADN cost 3x more than my bsn
    That reflects the situation in my region, too. The most expensive programs are the for-profit ADN programs. It costs less to get a BSN from a state university.
  7. by   elkpark
    Quote from Old.Timer
    OK, I'll admit it, my reasons for choosing BSN over diploma had nothing to do with thinking I would be a more skilled or qualified nurse. I was all about the social aspect and fun of college. Drinking beer at fraternity parties sounded much more appealing than living in a nurses dorm under the 24/7 watchful eye of humorless old maid nurses.
    (Just for the record , I attended a traditional (and well-respected) hospital-based diploma program, complete with student dorm on the hospital grounds, in the early '80s, and there was not a single "humorless old maid nurse" in the entire operation (classroom, clinical, or dorm). I did, however, get an excellent nursing education, which I only appreciate more and more as my nursing career has progressed.)
  8. by   edgarandersonrn
    Quote from Old.Timer
    OK, I'll admit it, my reasons for choosing BSN over diploma had nothing to do with thinking I would be a more skilled or qualified nurse. I was all about the social aspect and fun of college. Drinking beer at fraternity parties sounded much more appealing than living in a nurses dorm under the 24/7 watchful eye of humorless old maid nurses.
    Love it.
  9. by   linearthinker
    Quote from edga

    Respectfully, linearthinker, an MSN with a few classes more in their arsenal of education is a better nurse or educator than you and has greater intellectual prowess?
    It may be my lack of intellectual prowess , but I cannot answer this b/c I have no idea what you are asking. I am master's prepared. Are you asking me if I think doctorally prepared nurses have more in their arsenal, make better educators (poor comparison- I am a NP, not a nurse educator) and have greater intellect? My answer, without hesitation or reservation, is yes. Absolutely. Hence the reason I am pursuing a doctorate myself. If that wasn't the question, I have no idea what is. Sorry.
  10. by   SummitRN
    Quote from edga
    I should have quoted that to the original article. I am not trying to say that BSN educated nurses are any less than ADN's. They are certainly equal. I am just kind of annoyed of the preference they are getting.

    It's not ageism? A large majority of nurses that entered the field in the past are ADN or Diploma nurses that are now being asked or told to go back to school to keep their jobs. I remember all of the nurses, in a unit I did clinical, dragging around complaining about a test they had just had and how they were annoyed with school (RN-BSN). They were not BSN's but had worked in the Trauma unit for more than ten years and knew plenty about what they were doing. If these nurses are to leave the hospital; they may have trouble finding jobs elsewhere if they do not finish their degrees.
    Ageism implies that they are trying to choose people based on age.

    Employers are are choosing people based on education because THEY think there is a difference, whether it be subtle or not. (They face the problem of how to cut down a stack of 400 resumes for 2 open positions, degree is a pretty easy way to cut the stack in half).

    You carrying on about a statistical correlation between age of NGs and degree held by NGs does NOT prove that employers hate older candidates.

    1. Any ADN RN can get there BSN and usually get it online for a reasonable price.
    2. Any future nurse can choose their program: there are grants and loans.
    3. If an employer wants to perform subtle ageism (and I think it's ludicrous to claim they want a 22 year old over a 32 year old which is your claim) they can do it through the interview process because the degree on that application is no guaranteed determinate of age!

    There are many reasons people choose community colleges over universities, not just affordability as you claim. Other major reasons:

    1. Community Colleges are usually easier to get into, although candidates must often sit on a wait list. The CC model calls for (eventual) acceptance of all applicants who meet program requirements whereas the University model is usually a per-cycle merit based selection which rejects perfectly qualified applicants if they are not "cream of the crop" (as determined by the University).

    2. Location location location: CCs are more prevalent in rural areas. BSN programs may require a relocation or commute that many candidates find undesirable. (Will you now claim that BSN preference is discrimination against country folk?)

    3. Many other systemic differences.

    You cannot contort the structural differences of the nursing education and employment system into some nefarious intentional discriminatory plan by employees to screw you out of a job.
  11. by   linearthinker
    Thank you Summit, great post.
  12. by   LegzRN
    Quote from llg
    That reflects the situation in my region, too. The most expensive programs are the for-profit ADN programs. It costs less to get a BSN from a state university.
    Crazy, I know. I went to a small, catholic college that was very close to home. Their nursing program had a really excellent reputation. After I graduated, my advisor tried to persuade me to stay for the RN-BSN program, but after I saw the state universities tuition of ~$2k/semester (with the promise of only needing to attend two semesters), I respectfully declined.
  13. by   Old.Timer
    Quote from elkpark
    (Just for the record , I attended a traditional (and well-respected) hospital-based diploma program, complete with student dorm on the hospital grounds, in the early '80s, and there was not a single "humorless old maid nurse" in the entire operation (classroom, clinical, or dorm). I did, however, get an excellent nursing education, which I only appreciate more and more as my nursing career has progressed.)
    I am so so sorry if my comments appeared to be a put down towards anyone or anything other than making fun of my own immaturity and screwed up priorities at the time. My apologies.

    But I'm sticking with my humorless assessment with regard to the school in my area. I toured,interviewd, and met with everyone at the school....this was mid-seventies and they still had rules harking back to the fifties. You couldn't go out on "school nights", had to wear a dress when you were out of the dorm yada yada yada. I can't remember everything. It was affiliated with a Catholic hospital - I think they had the nun's rules mixed up with the nursing students.

close