Hypothetical Ethical Issue

[Pepper The Cat]

Clifford Olsen - a Canadian Serial Killer who murdered 11 children just died of cancer.

This ethical issue has been running through my mind ever since the media announced that he had cancer and was in hospital.

As a nurse, could I care for a serial killer? Could I keep him pain free in his last days? Could I separate his deeds from my duties as a nurse?

I really don't know what I would do if I had him as my pt?

What does everyone else think? Could you keep a serial killer painfree in his last days?

[TempRNce]

I think it's one thing to think about this hypothetically, "what would you do if..?", and a whole other thing to actually do it. We can say we'd care for anyone with no biases in the care we give, but if we really had to do it, what then? I think most would do their best to do their best, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have a huge emotional impact.

Thank you to those who have shared actual experiences in this. It's a biggie....

Exactly. I think refusing this assignment might actually be the more compassionate action if you thought your biases might get in the way of providing care. This happens with a lot of patients who never killed any children:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39524989/ns/health-pain_center/t/world-hurt-minorities-get-less-treatment-their-pain/#.ToZ5HU-xHtA

[Lynx25, LPN]

I'd do it, and I have done it, on a smaller scale.

I'm a nurse. It's not my place to get involved with any sort of judiciary business. It IS my place to shut up, and do my job, and provide the care needed.

[beast master RN]

to a serial killer , prob would do much for him, did the people he brutally murder get last request? did they get pain meds? did they get to die with dignity ? i mean really people? it's very easy to be self righteous sitting behind your keyboard but lets be serious, if i knew some killed 11 children ..please , if some one hurt MY kid , i wouldn't need the justice system ,

genesis chapter nine

"Whoever sheds human blood,

by humans shall their blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made mankind.

[Thujone]

Exodus 20:13

"You shall not murder."

Matthew 7:12

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

[wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA]

Having done correctional nursing I just separated myself mentally from the care of these patients. I was neither mean or nice to these patients just professional and distant. This method will work for some people. If you know these people committed these acts then their life is essentially over. Most of them will spend the rest of their lives in jail and are detested by the general population in prison. Given the chance many of the other inmates will beat, sodomize, and/or kill pedophiles.

It can be hard for some people to wrap their mind around the things a patient has done, and give appropriate care. Admitting that it bothers you and talking about it is usually the best thing, but in the end we are professionals and have a job to do.

[GimiRN]

to a serial killer , prob would do much for him, did the people he brutally murder get last request? did they get pain meds? did they get to die with dignity ? i mean really people? it's very easy to be self righteous sitting behind your keyboard but lets be serious, if i knew some killed 11 children ..please , if some one hurt MY kid , i wouldn't need the justice system...

To answer your questions, no, they did not.

I can only speak for myself, but when I say that I would be able to care for such a person, I mean it. And I am in NO way thinking I'm better than those who can't, nor trying to be "self righteous" sitting behind my keyboard. I would have the same answer in person. It wouldn't be a walk in the park, but I would do it.

I have been taking care of patients for many years, even the "enemy" while on deployment in a foreign land. And yes, like I said in my earlier post, I try my best to give all patients the same care. I could never imagine looking at someone who is suffering and thinking, "Yeah, that's what you get." For all I know, this person could have repented and already asked for forgiveness.

I respect those who say that they can't or wouldn't care for such a patient. And I hope they would refuse the assignment, rather than to withhold care or mistreat the patient. But just as there are healthcare workers who feel they can't take care of a serial killer/pedophile, there are plenty who feel just as strongly that they can. And admitting that doesn't make them liars.

Now if the person did something to my family personally, then of course I couldn't care for them. But if I don't know the parties involved, I would be able to distance myself, just like I have done many times over the years.

[tcvnurse, BSN, RN]

When I have to take care of prisoners I absolutely do not ask, nor do I try to find out what offenses he/she has committed to get locked up. Frankly, I don't want to know.

I do my assessment, pass meds, treat pain appropriately, and I am polite.

From the time I take report, that prisoner is MY patient, and that's how I treat him.

[OCNRN63, RN]

to a serial killer , prob would do much for him, did the people he brutally murder get last request? did they get pain meds? did they get to die with dignity ? i mean really people? it's very easy to be self righteous sitting behind your keyboard but lets be serious, if i knew some killed 11 children ..please , if some one hurt MY kid , i wouldn't need the justice system ,

genesis chapter nine

"Whoever sheds human blood,

by humans shall their blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made mankind.

Sigh. "Judge not, lest ye not be judged."

OK, can we get the sermonizing out of the way? If for no other reason, withholding care from the pt. could be a violation of one's license requirements. That would require an accounting with the BON. I don't need that kind of grief.

[melsch]

I asked myself the same question as I work in hospice and wondered what I would do if he was in our facility. We did have a man who raped and murdered a young girl a while ago and I just looked at it as he was just another body and someone had to look after him. He was mostly unresponsive by the time he was my patient though. I don't know if I could have looked after Olsen though - this man was evil and there is no way anyone in Canada doesn't know who he was or what he did. I would have hoped that they kept him fairly sedated so he couldn't harass the staff and to make it easier to look after him. I don't think I could have done it otherwise.

[Ms.RN]

As a nurse I think we have a duty to provide care to the patients no matter what their backgrounds are. If I have to take care of this person, I'll be very profesional. I go into patients room and do whatever I have to do and get out of patients' room. I wont be making a small talk or anything.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Wow. I though my immediate answer would have been that I absolutely could care for them just like anyone else. And then.....I thought ....I hope the rotten S.O.a.B would suffer every second as he drags his last breath into his putrid body.

I don't know....I really don't know......it's not that he is a prisoner.....it's his offense. I just don't know.

[KaksRN]

How many times have I been the nurse to someone as bad or even worse, without knowing? .

My thoughts exactly.

I think its important to remember that, despite their crimes, they're still people. And we did sign up to care for people.

I think it's one thing to think about this hypothetically, "what would you do if..?", and a whole other thing to actually do it. We can say we'd care for anyone with no biases in the care we give, but if we really had to do it, what then? I think most would do their best to do their best, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have a huge emotional impact.

Thank you to those who have shared actual experiences in this. It's a biggie....

I hope, and honestly think that I'd be ok caring for a criminal but until I'm put in the position, I wouldn't know.