High Fail Rate for new Grads on Boards - page 3
I work in East Texas and have noticed a alarming trend, our new grads are failing their state boards at a alarming rate (60 % from our local junior college). Moreover, all these new grads that were... Read More
Mar 21, '02Howdy, fellow Texan and thanks for explaining that new test, JWRN, I've heard students saying " it turned off at 80" and I wondered about that....sounds a bit like an ACLS logarithm!
Is the CCNS the neuro critical care exam? I bet that is a doozy...I do my AACN CEU's religiously as I hope to NEVER take that CCRN exam again! Ha!
I hear that many students today are purchasing NCLEX review books and attending 'pass the NCLEX' seminars... preparing themselves to pass just in case their schools miss the mark. Sounds like a good plan and I would do the same. Hope we don't swing the pendulum back and forth between clinical skills and academics--we gotta find some middle ground.
When I was in school, I thought it was awful when I heard through the grapevine that one of my competitor schools failed 20%--now I read 60% here and wonder what's going on! I think all pass/fail rates of nursing schools should be public record in order to show accountability to the public and to the students. I'll check the Texas BON site for that data.
You GO, student nurses we need more proactivity! I was one who took responsibility for my own learning too and it always worked for me (and I STILL go to every critical care update and interesting seminar I can hunt down!) I love 'em, there's always some new info for me to 'ruminate' on...heehee..
Mar 21, '02Would this have anything to do with the structure of the program, and the state standards for education.
I am currently applying for a lisence in Washington DC, and on the app it states that "If your primary lisence is from Texas, California, or (can't rmember), don't count on obtaining a lisence in DC. The educational standards of these states is not up to our standards." So how different can those programs be?
Mar 21, '02So, a lot of talk about the supposed 60% fail rate of some school but none of it from the person that originally posted the thread.
How could a curicculum fall within state guidelines to even be taught and then have 60% of the graduates fail?
Did I miss Jerry's response to questions about where he got his information? I see plenty of response from everybody else.
April fools day is just around the corner ya know.
Unless somebody happens to have a "Beautiful Mind" they'll be using a calculator like the rest of us.
Good luck on your boards.
Mar 21, '02i LOVED that movie no matter what math class i take, I will still consider myself a "math moron". Thank God calculus has nothing to do with drug calculations!
Mar 21, '02I agree with Charles. We are in a very tough spot as preceptors and or educators. I have been precepting new grads for years. I have noticed a recent trend that is frightening. I don't know if their motivation to become a nurse is different, or if due to our need for nurses, and the low enrollment rate schools are "lowering the bar". I have had FANTASTIC NEW GRADS, but recently I have had some really scarey ones. Example, one of my new grads wanted to give narcan to help relax a patient for MRI, scarey enough, but when I said no, and instructed her to look up narcan and tell me what it was used for, never did.....I waited that whole shift, and then the next day, and then asked her again, and she still didn't know. I don't know what bothered me more, that she thought to give a med without being clear on it's use, or had no desire to learn from it. I have been to my unit manager, and to our clinical education department for help. They are under pressure to get these nurses on the floor due to the shortage, so they ask that I continue on with people that I will never believe to be safe in practice. It isn't only knowledge that they lack, it is the desire for knowledge. I had a new grad that had the wrong iv fluid up, I questioned her, and the answer was that it was hung the shift before. I explained that once you have report, it is your responsibility, so YOU have the wrong ivf up. Talk about falling on deaf ears, she just insisted that it was up from last shift. I think back to my preceptorship, and how I cried sometimes because it was so hard, now I think I am glad I cried, because at least I understood my responsibility, and took it serious. I have recently precepted new grads that argue with me about doing something, or purposely don't do what I tell them has to be done. Now I am the most patient of people, and I have alot of trouble dealing with the fact that I can't teach them, I feel it is my failure as much if not more than theirs. But then I think, I can't teach the desire to be a nurse, or the desire to give quality nursing care. It is a big change for me, in the past, I always knew that the new grads I precepted would be fine eventually. Now as I said, I have experienced some that I won't clear to be on their own. I have never considered that precepting a new grad could end up with me in court some day until recently. I am sick over it. Lastly, I will say again I have precepted some of the greatest new grads ever, but have noted a trend recently that must be "fall-out" from the shortage of nurses.
Mar 21, '02I can relate to everything in your post (as one who has also precepted for 25 years) . Very well said, EL.
I am encountering attitudes in new grads / young nurses I've never seen before too and it is unbelievable to me. The most bothersome are those who want to do a Spock-like brain meld on the experienced staff, and openly defy you when you suggest they do some research themselves and come back with pertinent questions. They want to be handed the title 'experienced nurse' on a silver platter. (almost like attending lecture in school, they wait to be 'given' all pertinent knowledge by another!) These types are such a drain on us....many tell us flippantly "I'm only here in the ICU for my year's experience, THEN I'm going to anesthesia school and THEN I'm going to ...bla bla bla." I guess they're not called the 'entitled' generation for nothing, eh? LOL!
And of course, not all new grads are this way but like Charles and EL I too have noticed a trend. Has the 'dumbing down' of our profession begun in the wake of the nursing shortage? I surely hope not.....
Mar 21, '02The way SOME young people think about WORK and MONEY today has a lot to do with their upbringing as well as their exposure to worldly trends. Which is another reason I started the thread about "Cross-Generational changes, etc." If this generation behaves and looks at life as if "the world owes them....", what are their children going to do to society? Scary thought, if you ask me. :chuckle
When I worked as a CNA Clinical Instructor in 1994, my students were of various ages, and it was always the twenty-somethings who always seemed to come across as the "What does the world owe them instead of what they could do for the world mentality".
After many attempts to get one young CNA student to see the seriousness of her role in patient care, she consistently thought that because her mother was a RN, she already had it down pat as how to care for patients. Well, as much as I hated to do what I ended up doing, I had to fail her in my clinical rotation because I just couldn't see letting her loose with a CNA certificate to perform patient care with a "the world owes me, I don't owe the world" attitude as her attitude was reflected in the sloppiness of how she performed in the clinical area.
She may have made the grades in the didactic portion of the classes, but she failed everytime in the clinical setting. She was going to do things HER WAY, or nobody's way. Hmmmm, wonder what Miss Know-it-all is doing today? Did she repeat the classes, or did she enroll in nursing school like she said she MIGHT! Scary thought!Last edit by live4today on Mar 21, '02
Mar 21, '02These types are such a drain on us....many tell us flippantly "I'm only here in the ICU for my year's experience, THEN I'm going to anesthesia school and THEN I'm going to ...bla bla bla."
Mar 21, '02Mattsmom81---The CCNS exam is an advanced practice certification exam for Clinical Nurse Specialist in Acute and Critical care nursing. Like the CCRN there are three exams to choose from- Adult, Pedi, and Neonatal. I took the adult one. It was pretty hard, it focuses on the roles of the CNS, along with the pathophysiology stuff, too.
I know three people that just took the NCLEX here in TX. One from BSN program, and two from Diploma program. All three passed it. The BSN student only had 75 questions, the two diploma students had 105 questions each. I know here in TX the pass rates of all TX are located on the BNE website (www.bne.state.tx.us).
Mar 22, '02Thank you, JWRN! I'm always interested in hearing the whys and hows of education paths nurses choose.
A coworker of mine obtained this credential and now runs a critical care internship program at a large hospital here in Fort Worth...are you doing something similar? Or?
Mar 22, '02I'm responding to several posts, so be patient with me.
I'm a new BSN grad, just passed boards with 75 questions last month. I took a live NCLEX review and really got a lot out of it, although I wasn't expecting to. I felt that my nursing school had prepared me for the NCLEX but I know how terrrible my study habits are, so I figured it would be four days of forced studying, then I could go take the test and be done with it.
The main thing I got out of the course that I didn't get from nursing school is that the NCLEX expects you to answer questions like a NOVICE nurse. That is totally different from the expected answers on our tests in nursing school, where they were trying to teach us to think like EXPERIENCED nurses. So an expected abnormality (like an abnormal lab value because of a drug) would require the novice nurse to seek guidance from someone who knows more, but the experienced nurse would expect it. So if you encountered an NCLEX question that stated an abnormal lab and a particular drug therapy, the CORRECT answer would have to do with getting help, not expecting the abnormality.
I don't know how I would have done on my state boards if I had not understood this. We were taught how to think one way in nursing school, and then expected to think a different way for boards. This may have something to do with a high fail rate on the NCLEX, except for one thing: the national pass rate is in the 90s (the last time I heard). So either most graduates who take the test have been filled in on the little secret, or there are not enough questions on the test that experience vs. novice is the focus so it does not matter. It could be that most nursing schools are teaching toward the NCLEX and not worrying about whether or not their grads actually know what they are doing.
I got a lot of clinical experience in my BSN program, although I don't think it was enough. I'm working in ICU and the "seasoned" nurses (I'm certainly not going to say OLD!) agree that the thing that scares them the most about new grads is when they have the attitude of knowing everything. I know more than they think I know, but I do not have the attitude of knowing very much at all. If I've never done something, I'm honest and admit it. If I don't quite feel comfortable doing something, I get some help. There have been some things they expected that I knew how to do that I don't know how to do. For instance, I didn't know where the heart monitor leads went. I carry my IV book around with me and look stuff up ALL THE TIME, way more than I did in nursing school. If I just gave a drug last week and I can't quite remember something about it, I look it up again. I try to do things the way my preceptor likes (my first one liked IVPBs to go in over 30 min unless it was something like vanc, my current one likes them over an hour) if it really doesn't make a difference whether I do it my way or his way. I know once I'm out of orientation I'll be able to do some things my own way and I'll come up with my own routine of getting things done.
I originally thought I'd get my year of experience then go to anesthesia school, but I've realized I won't know enough to do well in anesthesia school with just one year of experience. But I have not marched in there and told ANYONE that I'm just there to get experience for anesthesia school. The person who posted that someone had said that to them must have been dealing with a real idiot! Besides, not many people manage to get into a CRNA program with one year of nursing experience, even though that's the MINIMUM requirement. And what does that say to your co-workers, who are training you only so you will leave for bigger things, and probably feel like you think you are too good to be a bedside nurse. I'll tell you something. I work with some INCREDIBLE nurses and I don't think I'll ever be as good as them, no matter what area of nursing I'm working in. They have a gift, something inborn that makes them just spectacular at what they do.
I need to get off here and catch a nap before my shift tonight! I really enjoy this message board!
Mar 23, '02Mattsmom81
I am the CNS for hospital in south TX for their critical care services (Tele, SICU and CCU). I do a little bit of everything, mainly competency stuff, orientation program, help teach in the critical care course, help teach ACLS and BLS. But the main thing I have been working on is orientation packet that incorporates that PBDS stuff that has been discussed here on this BB not too long ago, and right now I am working on a plan to get all of the RNs checked off on competencies before their evals are due in April. I still help with patients if they are short, I will help transport patients out of the ICU and CCU, or go to CT or MRI with patients if there is no nurse available. I end up taking patients maybe once a month for 4 hours usually 3p-7p, though I have stayed til 11p on a few occasions. Many of the nurses think I do not like taking patients, but I really do not mind. I miss it sometimes. I miss the hourly pay, I'm salaried now, miss only working 3 days a week too. But I am lucky I have a pretty cool boss, that has let me do my own thing, so I get to set my own hours (this is the greatest benefit). I like my job, it keeps me busy.....
Mar 23, '02Konni, you sound like a new grad I'd like to precept. Unfortunately there are ones out there that are not quite so interested in learning from a "seasoned" nurse's experience.
As far as carrying a book around and what not, I STILL look things up. I get "brain cramps" and would never compromise a patient with the attitude that I know it all.
As far as those nurses that are there for the "golden year" for anesthesia school, what a LAUGH. I want to know who they're paying off to get in that soon. I work with nurses who have YEARS of ICU experience, and they're sweating entry. I'd like to know what anesthesia school REALLY accepts an RN with only one year of experience.
And now I'll climb down off of the soapbox.