Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 3

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   fab4fan
    Whoops, let's try that again...
  2. by   wolfie
    Oh the old ADN BSN arguement. Well I think that just because you have a BSN or are a great nurse doesn't mean your going to be a better manager. My husband does management consulting and his thing with nurse's is the thing about your a good nurse so that equates to you being a good manager. The same thing is true for BSN and a good manager. Just because you have a BSN doesn't equate to you will be a good manager. And unless I misunderstood the person about physical therapy it doesn't require PHD. I've just spent several months with PT since I had a knee replacement and they do not require PHD's. And you might look at the adn vs bsn on the floor like this equal pay for equal work. I believe we've heard that statement before.
  3. by   deespoohbear
    I think PT minimum requirement is a Master's, that just recently went into effect.

    My current manager is working on her MSN. Does it make her a better paperwork person, probably. A better bedside nurse? NO. Experience, good judgment, and common sense are what make good bedside nurses. Not how many initials you have behind your name....when I am on the floor and one of my patients is going down the tubes, I want a nurse there who knows what the heck is going on and what needs to be done. I don't need somebody to sit there for God knows how long analyzing the situation with all their "leadership" knowledge. I want their "this person is crashing and this is what we need to do NOW" knowledge.

    So, if 2 year nurses are not qualified to work the bedside, what about LPN's? I have worked with a couple LPN's who left the BSN's wondering what the heck happened.... I would rather have an LPN with years of experience, good assessment skills, and common sense taking care of me than some BSN who thinks they know it all the first day they step out on the floor....

    I don't think having a BSN is a bad thing, unless you come off with the attitude that ASN and diploma nurses are useless. I have even considered going back for my BSN, but it would be because I want to prove to myself I can do it. In my part of the state it doesn't pay to have a BSN, unless you want to get into management....which I don't.....
  4. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Originally posted by EmeraldNYL
    . I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills
    wrong-o assumption here. sorry I cannot voice my disagreement loudly enough. Get into practice, and you will see this is a wrong assumption. More education does NOT equal more SKILL. MORE EXPERIENCE DOES!!!!!!
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Feb 8, '03
  5. by   Tweety
    Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
    wrong-o assumption here. sorry I cannot voice my disagreement loudly enough. Get into practice, and you will see this is a wrong assumption. More education does NOT equal more SKILL. MORE EXPERIENCE DOES!!!!!!
    I'm glad you said that SmilingBluEyes because I was thinking the same thing.

    I think for bedside nursing and ADN trains a person well. Over the years I've seen no difference between ADN trained and BSN trained nurses in how they think and act at the bedside. It's the beside experience not the diploma on the wall that equals skills.

    I agree that ADNs don't have the management courses needed to advance to management. That managers, educators, directors, etc. should be BSN educated.

    Even though I'm ADN trained, I'm not against the idea of making the standard for RN to be a BSN.

    I'm just too old and tired and busy right now to think about a BSN.
    Last edit by Tweety on Feb 8, '03
  6. by   SirJohnny
    All:

    - I'd like to add a different perspective to this discussion.

    - In the computer science field - an MS-Comp Sci degree will get you an extra US$10K to start, as compared to a BS-Comp Sci degree.

    - However, like previous posters have mentioned. You are being paid for your skill-set, not your educational abilities.

    - That being said, what happens in the Comp Sci industry is that salaries tend to even out (be the same) for both BS and MS degreed employees.

    - After being in the game for a number years, I use the MS-Degree to separate myself from the other candidates during interview time.

    - But, like the previous posters have mentioned - after a while, the salaries tend to even out as the skill-sets even out.

    John Coxey
    (jpcoxey@aol.com)
  7. by   nursenatalie
    Ok, I have stated this on other posts...but here goes. I have a Bachelor in Science in Biology...soon found out that is NOTHING in the real world. Now I am in an Associated Degree Nursing school and will graduate in May. We are taking a leadership class now, Im sure some of you are thinking, "the horror, ADN's taking a leadership course!" Well, I had researched the difference b/t the bachelor and ADN and found the main difference to be classes like sociology etc....no difference in Nursing core classes and yes ADN's get more clinical. My instructor has a doctorate in nursing and can't figure out an IV pump...do you think she would be a great nurse manager...hmmmmm???
  8. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    originally posted by emeraldnyl
    kasey, i agree with you 100%. usually a bsn is required for management positions in my area, but new staff nurses make the same regardless if they have an adn or bsn. i don't think this is right considering the bsn has more education, and therefore more skills. the profession of physical therapy has become a mroe well-respected, higher-paying profession because they all agreed to now requiring the phd. if nurses could all agree to make the bsn the minimal required entry level, this may help advance our profession as well. btw, welcome to the board!
    wow! i knew they up their entry level to masters but phd? man you learn something new everyday! i've heard similar talk about crna programs pushing for doctorate level too! thanks for that info.

    cheers!
    moe
  9. by   OC_An Khe
    Yes expirience is the best teacher. However it is a generally accepted principle that the more education you have the more you appreciate and can do with the expirience you gain.
    Also one should remember that hospital nursing/ direct patient care nursing is just barely half the employment opportunities for RNs. Many of those non hospital opportunities require the non clinical type courses in ones education background in order to be successful.
    Back to the original question of this thread, at our facility we do pay RNs with a BSN more money from first day of employment.
  10. by   SKM-NURSIEPOOH
    i would like to welcome kasey14546 to allnurses.com...hope you like it here. you'll find many interesting topics (nursing & non-nursing) alike here as welll as many colorful/spirited characters....so enjoy yourself & congrats on your upcoming accomplishments!

    that being said, i sort of have mix feelings regarding bsns receiving additional compensation over adns & diploma rns. yes, it true that bsns have additional nursing & liberal art courses under their belt. the biggest difference in my bsn program (i can only speak for mine at the moment because i haven't done any research on others) is the fact that in the senior year, we're required to take: nursing research, transitions to professional nursing, community nurisng, an interdiscipline course with ot, pt, di (diagnostic imaging), & lab sciences majors (this course is designed to have every individual discipline to learn the role of the other discipline in order to learn/respect that function for the benefit of the patients), & critical care nursing. as far as the additional liberal arts classes required for the bsn...i had to take statistics i but i choose to take statistics ii as an elective. all of the other liberal arts classes i've had to take were the same required re-reqs that the adn programs required. i decided to choose the bsn program because it was only four months more than the adn program (this is after taking the required re-reqs that is). i transfered in my junior year (it would've been the second year of a lpn-rn bridge program if i had've went with the adn program). for purpose of time & money, i thought just going straight for the bsn would be great. unfortunately, (& i can only speak for myself here) i wished i had of gone with the diploma/adn program i initally was striving for because i don't see a huge difference in some of the nursing courses & clinical expperiences i had to take over from my lpn program...& i'm not just speaking *tasks* either! i feel that i had a leg-up on a lot of my classmates because of my prior lpn education & experience...many folks were completely lost...even by the time they were ready to graduate because they felt (last years seniors) that they didn't get enough clinical exposure that would tie what was taught in class that some other programs offer. my bsn nursing program concentrates on critical thinking but some people aren't able to apply the theory that they've learn in the clincial setting. many of these folks are brilliant! many have gpa ranging from 3.54 up to 4.0...but they don't know their elbows from their.....well you know! these same people will have no problems with passing the nclex-rn as that's all we ever do from both junior & senior years...take nclex-rn type questions. i see just a few bsn prepared students at my school whom are proficient in both didactic & clinical knowledge whom can rival their respective diploma/adn graduating counterparts.

    now as far as experienced bsns vs. experienced diploma/adn rns goes...i think *if* everything *is* equal...over time...i believe all levels of rns would be proficient & confident in their respective areas of practice. be it general med/surg, critical care, or/l&d/ed, etc. compenstation should be based on experience...not the fact that someone has an degree or not. hospitals want the bsns but they don't want to pay extra for them...that's another reason why the push for bsn entry hasn't been strongly persuaded. i know that there's a nursing shortage going-on now but this talk about making bsns the entry level for nursing has been going on well before the shortage...it goes as far back as the '60s. it's all about the dollars & cents...employers would love to have bsns working for them...but they don't want to pay for their degree status....plan & simple.

    the mere fact that there isn't a different nclex-rn required for the bachelor prepared nurses is another indicator that the pay should be the same. i think that if there was a different...if not more difficult nclex-rn designed for the bachelor's prepared graduate...that would be grounds...i think...for more pay. after all, that is what separate the licensures between lpns & rns...the one year's additional nursing & one to 1.5 year's worth of liberal arts is what separates the lpns with the adns...two additonal nursing courses separates lpns from diploma rns. the rn-adns & diploma rns are compensated on that difference...so with that mind-set...i can see why some people would think that there should be a difference in salary between the adns/diploma rns & bsns.

    i'm afraid that i have to go along the side of bsns should be compensated more if they're in a management position. that would make sense especially being the ana is pushing for bsn to be the entry level to nursing. some day in the future...probably after the nursing shortage crisis is over...that will be the norm nation wide....& msns on will be the only standard for management.

    but as i've said...this is only my opinion here.

    cheers!
    moe
  11. by   moonshadeau
    Hello... anyone remember the nursing shortage!

    I want a nurse beside me that can perform her/his job function adequately without me having to pick up the extra slack. I don't care if you are a 2,4,6yr nurse.

    Yes, a BSN will promote the image of professional nursing. But when you are trying to attract nurses into the profession, especially older, 2nd career nurses, mandating 4 yr degrees is not going to be the answer. Especially appealing is the fact that you can get your nursing degree in 2 years, when you have to deal with a job, family and extra-cirricular activites.

    I firmly believe that the 2 and 4 year nursing programs need to get it together, get the cirriculum straight, and only then can we talk about mandatory education requirements.


    my two cents anyway.
  12. by   Hardknox
    I was waiting for someone to address the fact that there may be NO nurse at the bedside soon, Moonshadow!

    All this entry level yada yada has been going on forever. Has it happened? No. I work with Boston College SON people. They are paying well over $25K/yr for the pleasure of becoming an RN. They will have a job when they graduate and survey says---last a year or less on the job before looking for a new career. Unless the job environment changes this will continue, BSN or not!

    I once preceptered a new LPN to BSN grad. She told me she was surprised at the tension between the BSN and non-BSN nurses on our floor. I looked at her and responded "Any tension on this floor is nurse to nurse. Most of us don't know or care if we are BSN or ADN or Diploma grads. We are only interested in whether we can get the job done and are team players."

    In a perfect world BSN should be the entry level, but when hospitals are recruiting foreign nurses to get people at the bedside, it's all a pipedream to expect this entry level debate to mean anything at all. When I graduated in 1980 they were talking about this--nothing has changed except there are fewer programs for BSN's.
  13. by   MishlB
    Originally posted by kasey14546
    I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings, or by experience.
    I think that just as there is a difference in the tasks an RN and LPN can preform, there should also be a difference in what a two year RN can do, in comparison to a RN with a BSN. The 2 year RN should not be in leadeership or management positions since they have not been trained in accredeited colleges for this skill. The BSN has. I'm sure the 2 yers RN's will disagree with me, and 2 years ago I would have disagreed also. However, after being able to compare the two from personal experience, I feel the BSN is more educated for leadership and management. The BSN nurse should be paid more, and should be the starting educational level for these positions.
    Most professions have at least a 4 year degree. Nurses need to improve their educational standing to be equal with other professional fields.
    Yep..I disagree. Leadership does not come with education; there are naturally leaders in every group. Yes there are different tasks that can be done by LPN, RN...but that does not mean an LPN cannot learn that task or understand it, nor does it mean a 4-year grad is any more capable of performing a task than a 2 year grad. It only means they cannot perform it legally in certain facilities. My whole problem with nursing and nursing education is the brainwashing that the RN is superior because they have more education. I will never agree with this, and I disagree with your comment about leadership and management. Now that you have your 4 year degree, are you all of a sudden a leader?? And let me also say, I ATTENDED AN ACCREDITED COLLEGE....don't assume I didn't. Please think before you speak.

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