Assisting in abortions

a_clay · Mar 8, 2006

Pharmacists are in this same boat with the morning after pill.

This is interesting. I have saw on the news last year that alot of pharmacists in this area (I don't know about other areas) refuse to fill perscriptions for bith control pills because it is against their religious beliefs. Is this LEGAL for a pharmacist to do this?

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Mar 8, 2006

It should be if it's not, for the chain pharmacies that is.

Barb2000 · Mar 8, 2006

I worked in an ICU where occassionally we had pregnant women who were on treatments that could potentially harm the fetus. The approach was that you always treated the mother first. If their was an alternative that decreased fetal risks, that was always preferred, but if not, mom's health was paramount. In the case presented, if the mother isn't saved, the fetus would not survive anyway. So, if a nurse refused, they would lose both patients.

Blee O'Myacin, BSN, RN · Mar 8, 2006

Its the same moral question being raised as would you help a person who was bleeding out after being shot by police officers after the patient murdered one of their own? In a TV show you have time to see the characters emote the morality behind treatment, in real life you see blood on the floor/walls and hear people screaming.

But to answer your VERY loaded question, even if you were against abortion, should the woman receiving said abortion be punished with certain death by no treatment? It would be the chance for the biggest "I told you so" ever, eh? Or is it simply hypocrisy of the intern on the show being portrayed? It isn't as if he began the abortion, or willingly set out to perform one, yet he would willfully (by his non participation) cause a death.

Blee

I was watching an old episode of ER and it got me thinking (dangerous, I know). In the episode, an abortion clinic was bombed and the ER was receiving the casualties. One patient was in the middle of an abortion when the bomb went off and the abortion was not completed. When this was found out, the doctor's had to complete the abortion because she was bleeding out and crashing. An intern refused to participate even though without completing the abortion the patient would most likely die.
My question is, legally do nurses have to participate in a case like this? I've thought over the possible answers and can't decide.
Please, please do not turn this into a debate over whether or not abortion should be legal or not. I'm not looking into personal views, but the legalities of not participating.

yellowlablover · Mar 8, 2006

I was watching an old episode of ER and it got me thinking (dangerous, I know). In the episode, an abortion clinic was bombed and the ER was receiving the casualties. One patient was in the middle of an abortion when the bomb went off and the abortion was not completed. When this was found out, the doctor's had to complete the abortion because she was bleeding out and crashing. An intern refused to participate even though without completing the abortion the patient would most likely die.
My question is, legally do nurses have to participate in a case like this? I've thought over the possible answers and can't decide.
Please, please do not turn this into a debate over whether or not abortion should be legal or not. I'm not looking into personal views, but the legalities of not participating.

You ask if legally the nurses could choose not to attend to this patient due to the type of procedure that was in process. From the Nurses Code of Ethics, a nurse can choose to not be involved in a procedure that is morally repugnant to them, however a nurse CANNOT abandon a patient. So....that means a nurse must provide the means for the patient's care, via another nurse or take care of the patient themselves.

This is really about the ethics of nursing......I would guess the legal piece would come into play if a nurse determined they were not going to assist and there was no one else to intervene and the patient either died or had permanent damage. I would think this would be a good reason for a lawsuit, regardless of the procedure or the nurse's moral code.

:twocents:

DC

LanaBanana · Mar 8, 2006

I would (as a student, not completely educated in this stuff) think that in the situation like on ER, what you would be doing is essentially assisting in a D&C. The fetus was dead, you were only taking care of the woman, same as if she had miscarried.

gr8rnpjt, RN · Mar 8, 2006

Having said that, what you have to do, and what you are capable of doing, might be different.
I had a close encounter with a situation like that personally. It was an ICU pt, all tubed up and unconscious. But by some fluke, his criminal activities was on his record - he had been in legal trouble for child molestation. I had an unexpected emotional reaction. I thought, this is a man that could hurt my child. I don't want him to live. You can rationalize from afar, but you can't help how you feel. I was hit with the realization that if I were this man's nurse, which I wasn't, I would definitely ask my assignment to be changed. In a life-saving emergency, I HOPE that I would have the strength and principle in me to do what I need to do professionally, but I have learnt never assume for damn certain what I am or am not capable of doing.
That's also why I feel strongly that I should not have to know about my pt's background that's not related to his/her health. I don't want to be judge or jury.

Now that is a compelling issue. The ER story is that, just a story. But this, this is real life. and it would be a tough choice for me as well.

soliant12 · Mar 8, 2006

You absolutely can refuse to participate in the abortion procedure

I was watching an old episode of ER and it got me thinking (dangerous, I know). In the episode, an abortion clinic was bombed and the ER was receiving the casualties. One patient was in the middle of an abortion when the bomb went off and the abortion was not completed. When this was found out, the doctor's had to complete the abortion because she was bleeding out and crashing. An intern refused to participate even though without completing the abortion the patient would most likely die.
My question is, legally do nurses have to participate in a case like this? I've thought over the possible answers and can't decide.
Please, please do not turn this into a debate over whether or not abortion should be legal or not. I'm not looking into personal views, but the legalities of not participating.

soliant12 · Mar 8, 2006

Not assisting in a procedure is not abandonment

I doubt there such a thing as moral objection in law, which allows a nurse to abandon a pt.

epiphany · Mar 8, 2006

Not assisting in a procedure is not abandonment

You may want to make this into an abortion argument issue, but I'm not interested. What you are saying has nothing to do with what I said.

grannynurse FNP student · Mar 8, 2006

A nurse cannot be forced to engage in or assist with any procedure he/she has moral objections to, such as assisting with an abortion. It is the responsibility of that nurse to inform her employer of her position. This being said, a nurse would put herself in a position, if working in an ER, of putting a patient's life in jeopardy by her refusal to assist a physician in the completion of such an abortion. She does not have the right to jeopardize a patient's life.

Grannynurse:balloons:

pugmum · Mar 8, 2006

IMO, Emergency situation -> woman bleeding to death -> professionally and ethically you assist in any way you can. If you have any objections on religious/moral grounds, notify your employer of your reasons for not wanting to provide care, and continue to provide care until you are relieved. To do any less means that you could contribute to the death of a patient, and leave yourself open to all of the legal, moral, and professional consequences of your decision.