Am I reading this right...?

kanzi monkey · Sep 18, 2007

i pulled this from the california labor site, which defines when overtime is to be paid. i know that all states may not think the same way, but this is what i meant by labor's definition versus the contract's.
"in california, the general overtime provisions are that a nonexempt employee 18 years of age or older, or any minor employee 16 or 17 years of age who is not required by law to attend school and is not otherwise prohibited by law from engaging in the subject work, shall not be employed more than eight hours in any workday or more than 40 hours in any workweek unless he or she receives one and one-half times his or her regular rate of pay for all hours worked over eight hours in any workday and over 40 hours in the workweek. eight hours of labor constitutes a day's work, and employment beyond eight hours in any workday or more than six days in any workweek is permissible provided the employee is compensated for the overtime."
i am fully aware that many places have 10- and 12-hour shifts, but people working those shifts do not work more than 40 hours a week on a scheduled basis. people who do 12's get straight time, with the possible exception of shift diffs, but the overtime would kick in at more than 36 hours for that week.
someone pointed out that the 4-hour shift is a scheduled shift even if it's only 4 hours. true, and things can be tweaked in terms of deciding what constitutes a full day, but until and unless the op's contract is changed to specify that 4-hour employees are included, the standard understanding would win out here, and that is that a full shift is at least 8 hours.

there is probably some stipulation that allows ths hospitals to not pay ot for regularly scheduled 12 hour shifts--i know different types of organizations have certain exemptions. for example, i used to work on a large-scale farm--during harvest we'd work 18 hour days, 90 + hour weeks. not a cent for ot.

as far as defining a work day goes, however, the wording in the contract implies that it is the regular schedule of the employee that defines what constitutes a full workday. if the hospital schedules 4 hour shifts, then a 4 hour shift would define that "employee's workday". now, as i said earlier (and i know i can be long winded, so if you missed it i don't blame you:uhoh3:) my contract is worded very similarly to her's, however mine specifies that the ot applies only if you work 8 hours or more. so, if she worked at my hospital, she'd be out of luck.

you know, i guess all i'm thinking here is that, hey, if we work in a society where certain occupations defy "normal" workday standards (nursing, farming :) )

then it makes sense that the definition of a "workday" ought to be flexible. so, if her hospital's contract really includes paying ot to minimally part-time employees, that just makes sense and seems fair to me. but another poster was right. i don't have the contract in front of me. drat.

the concept of working a 5 day workweek, sleeping at night, eating normally, etc. is very far from me. it's almost 4 in the morning, it's my day off, and i'm thinking about cooking something for dinner right about now. nurses do exceptional work, they also have exceptional schedules.

anyway, talking too much again.

have a good (insert time of day it is to you)!

icunurse42066 · Sep 18, 2007

It's your choice to work 12 hours at a time. If you want to schedule shorter shifts, your should try to arrange that. But unless you are, for example, staying 12 hours when you only planned on 8, then there is no reason to pay you OT. If someone scheduled to work 4 has to stay 5 and ends up missing a meeting, a class, a bus, being late to their moonlight shift, not picking up the kid on time, etc, they should be compensated as per the contractual agreement. Likewise, if you work over your scheduled 12 hours, you should get OT. Working a long shift does not make your NON-work time any more important than someone who works 4.
As far as interpreting the OP's contract, I paritally agree with you. But the quote she posted specifically addressed the fact that the OT hours that are being described are hours in excess of the worker's scheduled shift, and NOT hours over 40 (which we all know is federally mandated OT). So, unless she is specifically reading from a part of her contract that is addressing only people who work FT as defined by her institution, then that statement probably applies to her.

I know that I work 12 hour shifts by my choice and I'm not saying that my NON-work time is more important than anyone else's, all I was trying to say was that until we can read the entire contract and get the exact wording re: F/T vs P/T, it's hard to say if the OP deserves OT pay or not. Now that being said, I have never worked for a facility that has a union, but I do travel nursing and in my contract it says I am to work 3 12 hour shifts (36 hours a week) and would be paid OT for anytime above 40 hours. So, if i work 16 hours each day for 2 days that week and only worked 8 the last day, then I would not get OT for the extra 8 hours I worked those 2 days. I don't know if that made any sense or not, after all, it is 0300 where I am, and you take what you can get at this hour HA HA! :confused:

rn/writer, RN · Sep 18, 2007

It's not fair to suggest to the OP that she is "jeopardizing" anything--if she has identified a problem where people aren't getting compensated in accordance with their contract, it needs to be addressed--not ignored because she thinks that she might not get to keep a shift she likes.
-Kan

This isn't about being fair or unfair. We all have to count the cost of the decisions we make.

I didn't say she would be wrong to pursue this. That's her choice, of course. The reality is that four-hour shifts are not common and that is something to take into consideration.

As other posters have noted, even in places where you get time and a half after eight or twelve hours when those are your scheduled shifts, four hour shifts would normally be excluded.

She needs to clarify the contract. What she does after that is her prerogative. But an informed decision takes many factors into account, one of them being that you can win the battle but still lose the war. Then again, you could also win both. The point is that a prudent person weighs all of the information before selecting a course of action.

Which is moot if the passage in question doesn't apply to four-hour shifts.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Sep 18, 2007

Overtime was designed to compensate employees who put in an extra long day (or week) and to make employers "count the cost" before asking them to do so. It doesn't seem unreasonable to have to work five hours instead of four. Most of the hospitals I'm aware of don't give time and a half after eight, but only after forty hours. Otherwise all the folks working twelve-hour shifts would qualify. And then to save money, the powers that be would be likely to switch back to eight-hour days, five days a week instead of the three twelves which many of my co-workers greatly prefer.
I don't mean to sound critical, but I'd be happy the hospital offered 4-5 hours shifts in the first place. Be careful you don't jeopardize such a rare opportunity.

I have to agree with this.

Unions can control alot but the employer has the easy option of changing shifts to something that they find less costly unless contracted otherwise. And many of those changes may end up hurting the nursing staff more than just working 4.5 hours at straight time.

I do know of facilities where "rules" stipulated that anything over 8 hours per day was to be paid at time and a half, regardless of whether total weekly hours exceeded 40.....they found 12 hour shifts quickly being phased out.

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Much like in the auto industry, unions can do good but the regs can backfire with unintended consequences for the rank and file.

cmo421 · Sep 18, 2007

I've got some issues at work regarding overtime and I'd like to know what you think about it.
My union contract states, "...Further, even though the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time worked..."
The part-time evening shifts in this hospital department are four hours long, but we often have to stay later to accomplish the tasks (five hours is typical). No person on evening shifts ever has over 20 hours per week, let alone 40 hours. I average 12 hours per week. We have never been paid over time when we stay past four hours.
I had a meeting with my supervisor who thinks what the above union contract is saying only applies to those who are working 40 hour work weeks and 8 hour days. I don't agree and believe what is said in the contract applies to me.
What do you think? I've already spoke with my union steward and they agree with me. Is the contract wording misleading? Just wanted some input.

Ok, I will get hammered for this one. This is one of the biggest problems with unions. Micro managing work hours. I have been a union person for all of my career,but unions can go over board. OT pay is killing most hospitals today. A very needed policy, but too often taken advantage of. Four hours work,even if a "designated" shift, should not be eligable for OT. Come on,let's be fair now. How many professions can say they are afforded the flexable shifts we are? Let's keep this benifit,we do not have many!

At the facility I work in now, the OT is really over extended. We have a union that gets us time and a half and also double time for some shifts. We do not have 4 hr shifts,unless you take call. When we take call for 4 hrs and get called in, it is at time and half,also receive call pay. If the four hrs call is attached to a shift(before or after) we get double time.

We have come a long way and more then deserve the money we get and more. I am just saying that we should not bite the hand that feeds us, unless bitten first,,,lol

agent66 · Sep 18, 2007

I've got some issues at work regarding overtime and I'd like to know what you think about it.
My union contract states, "...Further, even though the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time worked..."
The part-time evening shifts in this hospital department are four hours long, but we often have to stay later to accomplish the tasks (five hours is typical). No person on evening shifts ever has over 20 hours per week, let alone 40 hours. I average 12 hours per week. We have never been paid over time when we stay past four hours.
I had a meeting with my supervisor who thinks what the above union contract is saying only applies to those who are working 40 hour work weeks and 8 hour days. I don't agree and believe what is said in the contract applies to me.
What do you think? I've already spoke with my union steward and they agree with me. Is the contract wording misleading? Just wanted some input.

I read it as ANY hours over your scheduled shift is OT, regardless of total hours worked in the week. Evening shift seems to be the worst for getting off on time , esp 4 hours. I put in for overtime for any time over the prescheduled shift, but being reasonable of course. Running my butt off and working is one thing but if it was quiet and suddenly busy last 30 minutes of shift then I do not. In our contract we are also entitled to a fifteen minute break in the 4 hour shift, which of course no one takes, so I take that into account as well when pondering signing in for the OT. I have already given them fifteen minutes for free, and if I stay 30 more minutes, then certainly yes I will sign in.

YellowFinchFan · Sep 18, 2007

Four Hour shifts you are scheduled for ?

IMHO there is no way that you would get 1 1/2 time pay if you had to stay for five hours to get your work done.

If there is such a place that pays that I'd like to know! :)

xptp29a · Sep 19, 2007

Wow, I really appreciate all the responses.

I've contacted my union representative, who has met with management, but they didn't come to an agreement as to if this article in the contract applies to employees with four hour shifts. It's most likely going to greivance.

My intention wasn't to make things worse for anyone in the department; only to be compensated fairly according to the contract. In all honesty, the four hour shifts in this department will most likley always be around. The department (dietary) is made up of mostly college students who work only in the evening. The management has always had a problem with keeping the department adequately staffed during thie evening, so I hear.

Below I've provided the article regarding Hours of Work and Overtime from my union contract for those of you who want to see it in its original form. I got the information I posted originally from section (I), part 2. The parts listed as "Mercy" apply to me. Sorry for leaving this information out.

Thanks again everyone.

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ARTICLE 10

HOURS OF WORK AND OVERTIME

(A)(1)

WORKWEEK AND OVERTIME (Abbott, PEI, United only) -The regular pay period

shall be eighty (80) hours. Eight (8) hours shall constitute a day's work to be completed

within nine (9) consecutive hours. If an employee works in excess of eight (8) hours per

day, or in excess of eighty (80) hours in a two-week pay period, overtime at the rate of

one and one-half (1-1/2) times the employees regular straight-time hourly rate shall be

paid for such hours. PTO hours and frozen sick leave hours shall be considered as hours

of work for overtime purposes. An employee who works in excess of twelve (12)

consecutive hours shall receive double time the employee's regular straight-time hourly

rate for such excess hours.

If an employee is scheduled to work more than seven (7) consecutive days, such

scheduled days will be paid at time and one-half (1-1/2). After the schedule is posted, an

employee may request to work more than seven (7) consecutive days. Said employee

shall be paid at regular straight time pay unless the extra shift is in addition to eight (8)

hours worked in a day or eighty (80) hours worked in a two-week pay period. The

Employer and employee may mutually agree to a schedule of more than seven (7) days

without overtime when it meets the mutual interests of both parties.

If an employee volunteers to work on his/her scheduled day off, the employee will be

paid at his/her regular rate of pay unless the extra shift is over eighty (80) hours in a twoweek

pay period. If an employee is mandated to work on his or her day off, the employee

will be paid at time and one-half (1-1/2).

(A)(2) HOURS OF OVERTIME AND DAYS OFF – (Mercy only)

Eight (8) hours shall constitute a day’s work to be completed within nine (9) consecutive

hours. No employee shall work more than seven (7) consecutive days in a two-week

period. If an employee is required to work in excess of eight (8) hours per day, or in

excess of eighty (80) hours in a consecutive two-week period, or on any day scheduled as

a day off for such employee, overtime at the rate of one and one-half (1 ½) times the

employee’s regular straight-time hourly rate shall be paid for such overtime hours. The

preceding sentence notwithstanding, an employee required to work in excess of eight (8)

consecutive hours will be paid at the rate of one and one half (1 ½) times the regular rate

of pay for the first four (4) hours of such overtime and will be paid double time (2x) for

all overtime in excess of twelve (12) consecutive hours.

PTO and frozen sick leave shall be considered as hours of work for overtime purposes.

Employees may, with the approval of the Hospital and the employees, change their days

off with other employees in the same classification.

In any case where any employee is now working less than seven (7) consecutive days, no

such employee shall be required to work more consecutive days than are now being

worked by such employee, except upon payment of overtime at the rate of one and onehalf

(1 ½) times the straight time hourly rate of such employee for work performed on

the sixth (6th) and/or seventh (7th) consecutive workday as the case may be, where such

sixth and/or seventh consecutive workday is in excess of the number of consecutive

workdays now worked by such employee. This provision shall not apply to any employee

heretofore working a schedule including nonconsecutive days off who shall elect, under

the terms as hereinafter provided, to work a schedule providing for consecutive days off.

(B) SCHEDULING PATTERN - The general pattern of scheduling shall be such that all

employees shall have at least two (2) Sundays off per calendar month, together with a day

consecutive therewith, and two (2) consecutive days off during the alternate week. All

employees shall have an absolute, unqualified right to elect to work pursuant to the

general pattern of scheduling. Notwithstanding said right, an employee may, by mutual

agreement with the Hospital, elect to work a scheduling pattern providing for

nonconsecutive days off in the alternate week.

Where employees elect to work pursuant to the general pattern of scheduling, the

Hospital may schedule the Sundays off for such employee on the basis of either a

Saturday-Sunday or a Sunday-Monday combination. Where employees elect to work

pursuant to a scheduling pattern providing for nonconsecutive days off in the alternate

week, such employees shall have two (2) weekends (Saturday and Sunday) off per

calendar month.

The scheduled workweek need not correspond to the calendar week, and the pattern of

scheduling may be such that more or fewer than five (5) days of work are scheduled in one

(1) week, provided that not more than ten (10) days of work are scheduled in any two

(2) consecutive workweeks.

The scheduling provisions contained herein shall not apply to part-time employees

regularly scheduled to work forty-eight (48) hours or less in a two-week pay period.

(14) calendar days in advance of the workweek.

(D) SCHEDULING GUARANTEE - Where any department as a whole is now working

less than seven (7) consecutive days, the work schedule of such department shall not be

changed except by mutual agreement between the Hospital and the Union, except that

this sentence shall not apply to employees required for surgical emergencies.

(E) WORKWEEK SCHEDULES TO CONFORM NOTICES - Workweek schedules in

conformity with this Agreement shall be furnished to the Union within fifteen (15) days

of the execution of this Agreement. Any proposed workweek schedules shall likewise be

in conformity with this Agreement and shall be furnished to the Union at least fifteen

(15) days before the effective date of such proposed change.

If within such fifteen (15) day period the Union shall file written objections to such

proposed change with the Hospital, the effective date of such change shall be postponed

pending the submission of the objections to a Board of Arbitration consisting of one (1)

member selected by the Employer, one (1) member selected by the Union, and a third

member selected by the Director of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. Such

third member shall serve as impartial chairman. The decision or award by said arbitrators,

or a majority of them, shall be final and binding upon the parties. Provided, however, that

the decision of the Arbitration Board to be final and binding must be served in writing

upon the parties within thirty (30) days of the originally proposed effective date of the

schedule change; otherwise, said decision shall be a nullity and of no legal effect, and the

Hospital shall have the right to effectuate said proposed workweek schedule. The expense

of the Board of Arbitration shall be borne by the parties equally.

(F) NO SPLIT SHIFTS - There shall be no split shifts; provided, however, the Union agrees

it will make exceptions in this respect on the basis of individual hospital negotiations.

Employees who agree to work with less than 12 hours between shifts due to hospital

need, including open shifts and available extra hours, shall be paid premium double back

pay at the rate of time and one half for the hours worked between the time of return and

the end of the 12 hour period. This provision shall not apply due to employees trading

hours or an employee initiated schedule change.

(G) OVERTIME SCHEDULING - Employees shall not be required to take time off in lieu of

overtime pay. To meet the above-scheduled hours, Sunday hours may be reduced. Work

hours on Saturdays and Sundays shall not be increased by reason of anything contained in

this Agreement.

(H) SENIORITY PREFERENCE - In the establishment of workweek schedules, the Hospital

shall give preference to employees in accordance with seniority as far as practicable and

consistent with proper hospital management. Employees who have 20 calendar years of

employment in the bargaining unit may have the opportunity for straight day shift and/or

no weekend shifts when that becomes possible. The employee will submit a written

request to his/her manager. When the opportunity to create such shifts occurs, the

employee and the manager will confer to determine the feasibility and impact of the

change on patient care, the work of the department, the effect on other employees, and

whether to proceed with creating the opportunity. If more than one 20 year employee on

the same unit submits a written request the opportunity will be offered according to

seniority.

(I) FLEXIBLE SCHEDULING - The Hospital and an individual employee may agree upon

a pattern of work schedules providing for work in excess of eight (8) hours per day. Work

schedules established pursuant to the provisions of this Section shall be subject to the

following conditions:

1. An employee shall have an opportunity to review the alternate work schedule or

schedules being considered prior to volunteering for flexible work schedules. The

employee may limit agreement to specific types of flexible schedules. The

Hospital shall retain written documentation that an employee has agreed to a

flexible work schedule and of the type of flexible schedule to which the employee

has agreed. An employee electing to work schedules under this Section may

revoke such election by giving the Hospital written notice of six (6) weeks or a

period of time equal to the length of time normally covered by the Hospital's

posted schedule of work hours, whichever is less.

2. The basic work period shall be forty (40) hours per week. An employee shall be

paid time and one-half (1-1/2) for work in excess of forty (40) hours per week

rather than the overtime provisions set forth in this Section. Further, even though

the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee

working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate

of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time so worked, except that hours in

excess of twelve (12) consecutive hours in a workday be paid at the rate of double

time.

3. Evening shift differential shall be paid for all hours of the shift where 50% or

more of the hours are worked after 3:00 p.m. and before 11:00 p.m. Night shift

differential shall be paid for all hours of the shift where 50% or more of the hours

are worked after 11:00 p.m. and before 7:00 a.m.

(J)(1) EXTRA HOURS (Abbott, PEI, United only) - The Hospital shall post a sign-up sheet

prior to the posting of the work schedule whereby employees may indicate availability

for specific extra shifts within their classification. Extra shifts shall be granted on a

seniority basis first to employees on a non-overtime basis and then to employees on an

overtime basis. Extra shifts shall be granted as provided in this Section before using

temporary employees of outside employment agencies. Individual hospitals shall meet

with the Union to develop a policy that provides for the consistent application of this

section.

(J)(2)

EXTRA HOURS (Mercy only) Schedules shall be posted with known holes up to six (6)

weeks in advance to the start of the schedule. At the same time, an availability list will

be posted for five (5) calendar days. On the sixth (6) day, the availability list will come

down, the holes will be filled as outlined below and a new schedule will be posted.

In order to be eligible for extra shifts and in order to exercise seniority rights,

employees must sign the availability list.

Availability lists will be posted in each department. Nursing availability lists will be

posted in the staffing office, with the exception of Closed Units such as SARS, PACU,

Ambulatory Care, etc., which will post their own lists in their units.

Extra hours will be filled on the following basis from the availability list:

1. Non-overtime, most senior employee in a classification,

2. Overtime, most senior employee in a classification,

3. Non-overtime, most senior qualified employee outside a classification,

4. Overtime, most senior qualified employee outside a classification.

After filling extra hours from the employees signed – up on the availability list, the

Hospital will:

5. Award extra hours to whomever else will work within that job classification,

including those not scheduled to work that day or those who are scheduled to

work later on a later shift. (Seniority might not be a determining factor in the

number five (5.) because employees had the right to exercise their seniority

rights by signing the availability lists as outlined in numbers 1-4 above.)

There will be no more daily availability lists because same day holes as a result of sick

calls, etc., will be filled via the availability list and process as referenced above. Same

day calls to staffing personnel shall fall into number five (5) above and seniority might

not be a determining factor in awarding extra hours because seniority rights can only

be exercised by signing the availability list.

(K) GIVE AWAY SHIFTS - Employees may give away shifts without using PTO time as

follows:

• An employee may give away four (4) shifts per year

• An employee must have a work agreement of .5 FTE or greater

• The give away shift shall not create overtime for the employee accepting to work

the shift

• An employee accepting the shift must be qualified within the classification

• (Abbott, PEI, United only) An employee shall not give shifts to casual employees.

(L) INCREASES AND DECREASES IN WORK AGREEMENT - If a regularly scheduled

employee works above his/her work agreement for a minimum of six (6) consecutive

months, the employee may request a change in his/her work agreement. (The hours

worked above do not include unscheduled absences, PTO, leaves of absence, give away

shifts, and hours from posted but unfilled positions). These hours will be posted and

awarded by seniority. If the employee works below his/her work agreement for a six (6)

month consecutive period of time, management may reduce the work agreement after

evaluation and consultation with the employee. Low need days do not apply.

(M) DOCTORS’ APPOINTMENTS - With management approval, the employee will be able

to adjust his/her schedule to accommodate a doctors' appointment.

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