I've got some issues at work regarding overtime and I'd like to know what you think about it.
My union contract states, "...Further, even though the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time worked..."
The part-time evening shifts in this hospital department are four hours long, but we often have to stay later to accomplish the tasks (five hours is typical). No person on evening shifts ever has over 20 hours per week, let alone 40 hours. I average 12 hours per week. We have never been paid over time when we stay past four hours.
I had a meeting with my supervisor who thinks what the above union contract is saying only applies to those who are working 40 hour work weeks and 8 hour days. I don't agree and believe what is said in the contract applies to me.
What do you think? I've already spoke with my union steward and they agree with me. Is the contract wording misleading? Just wanted some input.
i pulled this from the california labor site, which defines when overtime is to be paid. i know that all states may not think the same way, but this is what i meant by labor's definition versus the contract's.
"in california, the general overtime provisions are that a nonexempt employee 18 years of age or older, or any minor employee 16 or 17 years of age who is not required by law to attend school and is not otherwise prohibited by law from engaging in the subject work, shall not be employed more than eight hours in any workday or more than 40 hours in any workweek unless he or she receives one and one-half times his or her regular rate of pay for all hours worked over eight hours in any workday and over 40 hours in the workweek. eight hours of labor constitutes a day's work, and employment beyond eight hours in any workday or more than six days in any workweek is permissible provided the employee is compensated for the overtime."
i am fully aware that many places have 10- and 12-hour shifts, but people working those shifts do not work more than 40 hours a week on a scheduled basis. people who do 12's get straight time, with the possible exception of shift diffs, but the overtime would kick in at more than 36 hours for that week.
someone pointed out that the 4-hour shift is a scheduled shift even if it's only 4 hours. true, and things can be tweaked in terms of deciding what constitutes a full day, but until and unless the op's contract is changed to specify that 4-hour employees are included, the standard understanding would win out here, and that is that a full shift is at least 8 hours.
there is probably some stipulation that allows ths hospitals to not pay ot for regularly scheduled 12 hour shifts--i know different types of organizations have certain exemptions. for example, i used to work on a large-scale farm--during harvest we'd work 18 hour days, 90 + hour weeks. not a cent for ot.
as far as defining a work day goes, however, the wording in the contract implies that it is the regular schedule of the employee that defines what constitutes a full workday. if the hospital schedules 4 hour shifts, then a 4 hour shift would define that "employee's workday". now, as i said earlier (and i know i can be long winded, so if you missed it i don't blame you:uhoh3:) my contract is worded very similarly to her's, however mine specifies that the ot applies only if you work 8 hours or more. so, if she worked at my hospital, she'd be out of luck.
you know, i guess all i'm thinking here is that, hey, if we work in a society where certain occupations defy "normal" workday standards (nursing, farming :) )
then it makes sense that the definition of a "workday" ought to be flexible. so, if her hospital's contract really includes paying ot to minimally part-time employees, that just makes sense and seems fair to me. but another poster was right. i don't have the contract in front of me. drat.
the concept of working a 5 day workweek, sleeping at night, eating normally, etc. is very far from me. it's almost 4 in the morning, it's my day off, and i'm thinking about cooking something for dinner right about now. nurses do exceptional work, they also have exceptional schedules.
It's your choice to work 12 hours at a time. If you want to schedule shorter shifts, your should try to arrange that. But unless you are, for example, staying 12 hours when you only planned on 8, then there is no reason to pay you OT. If someone scheduled to work 4 has to stay 5 and ends up missing a meeting, a class, a bus, being late to their moonlight shift, not picking up the kid on time, etc, they should be compensated as per the contractual agreement. Likewise, if you work over your scheduled 12 hours, you should get OT. Working a long shift does not make your NON-work time any more important than someone who works 4.
As far as interpreting the OP's contract, I paritally agree with you. But the quote she posted specifically addressed the fact that the OT hours that are being described are hours in excess of the worker's scheduled shift, and NOT hours over 40 (which we all know is federally mandated OT). So, unless she is specifically reading from a part of her contract that is addressing only people who work FT as defined by her institution, then that statement probably applies to her.
I know that I work 12 hour shifts by my choice and I'm not saying that my NON-work time is more important than anyone else's, all I was trying to say was that until we can read the entire contract and get the exact wording re: F/T vs P/T, it's hard to say if the OP deserves OT pay or not. Now that being said, I have never worked for a facility that has a union, but I do travel nursing and in my contract it says I am to work 3 12 hour shifts (36 hours a week) and would be paid OT for anytime above 40 hours. So, if i work 16 hours each day for 2 days that week and only worked 8 the last day, then I would not get OT for the extra 8 hours I worked those 2 days. I don't know if that made any sense or not, after all, it is 0300 where I am, and you take what you can get at this hour HA HA!
It's not fair to suggest to the OP that she is "jeopardizing" anything--if she has identified a problem where people aren't getting compensated in accordance with their contract, it needs to be addressed--not ignored because she thinks that she might not get to keep a shift she likes.
-Kan
This isn't about being fair or unfair. We all have to count the cost of the decisions we make.
I didn't say she would be wrong to pursue this. That's her choice, of course. The reality is that four-hour shifts are not common and that is something to take into consideration.
As other posters have noted, even in places where you get time and a half after eight or twelve hours when those are your scheduled shifts, four hour shifts would normally be excluded.
She needs to clarify the contract. What she does after that is her prerogative. But an informed decision takes many factors into account, one of them being that you can win the battle but still lose the war. Then again, you could also win both. The point is that a prudent person weighs all of the information before selecting a course of action.
Which is moot if the passage in question doesn't apply to four-hour shifts.
Overtime was designed to compensate employees who put in an extra long day (or week) and to make employers "count the cost" before asking them to do so. It doesn't seem unreasonable to have to work five hours instead of four. Most of the hospitals I'm aware of don't give time and a half after eight, but only after forty hours. Otherwise all the folks working twelve-hour shifts would qualify. And then to save money, the powers that be would be likely to switch back to eight-hour days, five days a week instead of the three twelves which many of my co-workers greatly prefer.
I don't mean to sound critical, but I'd be happy the hospital offered 4-5 hours shifts in the first place. Be careful you don't jeopardize such a rare opportunity.
I have to agree with this.
Unions can control alot but the employer has the easy option of changing shifts to something that they find less costly unless contracted otherwise. And many of those changes may end up hurting the nursing staff more than just working 4.5 hours at straight time.
I do know of facilities where "rules" stipulated that anything over 8 hours per day was to be paid at time and a half, regardless of whether total weekly hours exceeded 40.....they found 12 hour shifts quickly being phased out.
I've got some issues at work regarding overtime and I'd like to know what you think about it.
My union contract states, "...Further, even though the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time worked..."
The part-time evening shifts in this hospital department are four hours long, but we often have to stay later to accomplish the tasks (five hours is typical). No person on evening shifts ever has over 20 hours per week, let alone 40 hours. I average 12 hours per week. We have never been paid over time when we stay past four hours.
I had a meeting with my supervisor who thinks what the above union contract is saying only applies to those who are working 40 hour work weeks and 8 hour days. I don't agree and believe what is said in the contract applies to me.
What do you think? I've already spoke with my union steward and they agree with me. Is the contract wording misleading? Just wanted some input.
Ok, I will get hammered for this one. This is one of the biggest problems with unions. Micro managing work hours. I have been a union person for all of my career,but unions can go over board. OT pay is killing most hospitals today. A very needed policy, but too often taken advantage of. Four hours work,even if a "designated" shift, should not be eligable for OT. Come on,let's be fair now. How many professions can say they are afforded the flexable shifts we are? Let's keep this benifit,we do not have many!
At the facility I work in now, the OT is really over extended. We have a union that gets us time and a half and also double time for some shifts. We do not have 4 hr shifts,unless you take call. When we take call for 4 hrs and get called in, it is at time and half,also receive call pay. If the four hrs call is attached to a shift(before or after) we get double time.
We have come a long way and more then deserve the money we get and more. I am just saying that we should not bite the hand that feeds us, unless bitten first,,,lol
I've got some issues at work regarding overtime and I'd like to know what you think about it.
My union contract states, "...Further, even though the total hours worked during a week may not exceed forty (40) an employee working in excess of the employee's scheduled workday shall be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1-1/2) for all excess time worked..."
The part-time evening shifts in this hospital department are four hours long, but we often have to stay later to accomplish the tasks (five hours is typical). No person on evening shifts ever has over 20 hours per week, let alone 40 hours. I average 12 hours per week. We have never been paid over time when we stay past four hours.
I had a meeting with my supervisor who thinks what the above union contract is saying only applies to those who are working 40 hour work weeks and 8 hour days. I don't agree and believe what is said in the contract applies to me.
What do you think? I've already spoke with my union steward and they agree with me. Is the contract wording misleading? Just wanted some input.
I read it as ANY hours over your scheduled shift is OT, regardless of total hours worked in the week. Evening shift seems to be the worst for getting off on time , esp 4 hours. I put in for overtime for any time over the prescheduled shift, but being reasonable of course. Running my butt off and working is one thing but if it was quiet and suddenly busy last 30 minutes of shift then I do not. In our contract we are also entitled to a fifteen minute break in the 4 hour shift, which of course no one takes, so I take that into account as well when pondering signing in for the OT. I have already given them fifteen minutes for free, and if I stay 30 more minutes, then certainly yes I will sign in.
I've contacted my union representative, who has met with management, but they didn't come to an agreement as to if this article in the contract applies to employees with four hour shifts. It's most likely going to greivance.
My intention wasn't to make things worse for anyone in the department; only to be compensated fairly according to the contract. In all honesty, the four hour shifts in this department will most likley always be around. The department (dietary) is made up of mostly college students who work only in the evening. The management has always had a problem with keeping the department adequately staffed during thie evening, so I hear.
Below I've provided the article regarding Hours of Work and Overtime from my union contract for those of you who want to see it in its original form. I got the information I posted originally from section (I), part 2. The parts listed as "Mercy" apply to me. Sorry for leaving this information out.
Thanks again everyone.
###
ARTICLE 10
HOURS OF WORK AND OVERTIME
(A)(1)
WORKWEEK AND OVERTIME (Abbott, PEI, United only) -The regular pay period
shall be eighty (80) hours. Eight (8) hours shall constitute a day's work to be completed
within nine (9) consecutive hours. If an employee works in excess of eight (8) hours per
day, or in excess of eighty (80) hours in a two-week pay period, overtime at the rate of
one and one-half (1-1/2) times the employees regular straight-time hourly rate shall be
paid for such hours. PTO hours and frozen sick leave hours shall be considered as hours
of work for overtime purposes. An employee who works in excess of twelve (12)
consecutive hours shall receive double time the employee's regular straight-time hourly
rate for such excess hours.
If an employee is scheduled to work more than seven (7) consecutive days, such
scheduled days will be paid at time and one-half (1-1/2). After the schedule is posted, an
employee may request to work more than seven (7) consecutive days. Said employee
shall be paid at regular straight time pay unless the extra shift is in addition to eight (8)
hours worked in a day or eighty (80) hours worked in a two-week pay period. The
Employer and employee may mutually agree to a schedule of more than seven (7) days
without overtime when it meets the mutual interests of both parties.
If an employee volunteers to work on his/her scheduled day off, the employee will be
paid at his/her regular rate of pay unless the extra shift is over eighty (80) hours in a twoweek
pay period. If an employee is mandated to work on his or her day off, the employee
will be paid at time and one-half (1-1/2).
(A)(2) HOURS OF OVERTIME AND DAYS OFF – (Mercy only)
Eight (8) hours shall constitute a day’s work to be completed within nine (9) consecutive
hours. No employee shall work more than seven (7) consecutive days in a two-week
period. If an employee is required to work in excess of eight (8) hours per day, or in
excess of eighty (80) hours in a consecutive two-week period, or on any day scheduled as
a day off for such employee, overtime at the rate of one and one-half (1 ½) times the
employee’s regular straight-time hourly rate shall be paid for such overtime hours. The
preceding sentence notwithstanding, an employee required to work in excess of eight (8)
consecutive hours will be paid at the rate of one and one half (1 ½) times the regular rate
of pay for the first four (4) hours of such overtime and will be paid double time (2x) for
all overtime in excess of twelve (12) consecutive hours.
PTO and frozen sick leave shall be considered as hours of work for overtime purposes.
Employees may, with the approval of the Hospital and the employees, change their days
off with other employees in the same classification.
In any case where any employee is now working less than seven (7) consecutive days, no
such employee shall be required to work more consecutive days than are now being
worked by such employee, except upon payment of overtime at the rate of one and onehalf
(1 ½) times the straight time hourly rate of such employee for work performed on
the sixth (6th) and/or seventh (7th) consecutive workday as the case may be, where such
sixth and/or seventh consecutive workday is in excess of the number of consecutive
workdays now worked by such employee. This provision shall not apply to any employee
heretofore working a schedule including nonconsecutive days off who shall elect, under
the terms as hereinafter provided, to work a schedule providing for consecutive days off.
(B) SCHEDULING PATTERN - The general pattern of scheduling shall be such that all
employees shall have at least two (2) Sundays off per calendar month, together with a day
consecutive therewith, and two (2) consecutive days off during the alternate week. All
employees shall have an absolute, unqualified right to elect to work pursuant to the
general pattern of scheduling. Notwithstanding said right, an employee may, by mutual
agreement with the Hospital, elect to work a scheduling pattern providing for
nonconsecutive days off in the alternate week.
Where employees elect to work pursuant to the general pattern of scheduling, the
Hospital may schedule the Sundays off for such employee on the basis of either a
Saturday-Sunday or a Sunday-Monday combination. Where employees elect to work
pursuant to a scheduling pattern providing for nonconsecutive days off in the alternate
week, such employees shall have two (2) weekends (Saturday and Sunday) off per
calendar month.
The scheduled workweek need not correspond to the calendar week, and the pattern of
scheduling may be such that more or fewer than five (5) days of work are scheduled in one
(1) week, provided that not more than ten (10) days of work are scheduled in any two
(2) consecutive workweeks.
The scheduling provisions contained herein shall not apply to part-time employees
regularly scheduled to work forty-eight (48) hours or less in a two-week pay period.
kanzi monkey
618 Posts
there is probably some stipulation that allows ths hospitals to not pay ot for regularly scheduled 12 hour shifts--i know different types of organizations have certain exemptions. for example, i used to work on a large-scale farm--during harvest we'd work 18 hour days, 90 + hour weeks. not a cent for ot.
as far as defining a work day goes, however, the wording in the contract implies that it is the regular schedule of the employee that defines what constitutes a full workday. if the hospital schedules 4 hour shifts, then a 4 hour shift would define that "employee's workday". now, as i said earlier (and i know i can be long winded, so if you missed it i don't blame you:uhoh3:) my contract is worded very similarly to her's, however mine specifies that the ot applies only if you work 8 hours or more. so, if she worked at my hospital, she'd be out of luck.
you know, i guess all i'm thinking here is that, hey, if we work in a society where certain occupations defy "normal" workday standards (nursing, farming :) )
then it makes sense that the definition of a "workday" ought to be flexible. so, if her hospital's contract really includes paying ot to minimally part-time employees, that just makes sense and seems fair to me. but another poster was right. i don't have the contract in front of me. drat.
the concept of working a 5 day workweek, sleeping at night, eating normally, etc. is very far from me. it's almost 4 in the morning, it's my day off, and i'm thinking about cooking something for dinner right about now. nurses do exceptional work, they also have exceptional schedules.
anyway, talking too much again.
have a good (insert time of day it is to you)!