12-Step Coercion

tommyperkins · Jun 22, 2004

No offense but what is the point of this book other than negativism? Does the author have an alternative for helping those suffering alcoholics/addicts achieve a sober, happy and healthy life? There are two kinds of people in this world - those that see the glass as half full and those that see it as half empty. I for one feel as if I am being chocked to death when surrounded by negativity that abounds from the glass half empty theorists/people.As I said what is Stanton Peele's point?

Stanton Peele's point is that 12-step coercion violates a person's constitutional right to religious liberty.

RN30years · Jun 22, 2004

I have been to AA and NA meetings, Just because I know I may be sent there one day by the clueless BON . They required that we pray and more than once they ask us to SING Christian songs? ???? for the Bible tells me soooooooo!!!!!!!!

not everyone is a Christian It was too weird !!!

koan · Jun 22, 2004

most are not like that but the catch is you really have to look for a group that fits you...personally I couldn't stand the singing and churchy stuff but I think a person addicted to going to church (or AA) is better than being addicted to drugs or alcohol (even if it is annoying)

I have been to AA and NA meetings, Just because I know I may be sent there one day by the clueless BON . They required that we pray and more than once they ask us to SING Christian songs? ???? for the Bible tells me soooooooo!!!!!!!!
not everyone is a Christian It was too weird !!!

Dixiedi · Jun 22, 2004

I have been to AA and NA meetings, Just because I know I may be sent there one day by the clueless BON . They required that we pray and more than once they ask us to SING Christian songs? ???? for the Bible tells me soooooooo!!!!!!!!
not everyone is a Christian It was too weird !!!

Not to sound like a real jack--- I just want to remind you that there are two traditional books of the bible.

Those of us who are not Christians, but do believe in God (which includes Jewish folk) do read/believe in the Old Testament.

Folks who are Christian follow both the Old and New Testaments.

There are other more non-traditional books such as the Book of Morman. Mormans' are Christians but believe a somewhat different version of the New Testament was found here on the North American continent. And don't forget Wiccan and other less traditional beliefs.

Oh well, that's enough... just wanted to remind you that not everyone who believes in God is a Christian.

Big Bab's · Jun 22, 2004

I quit posting in here several days ago becasue I realized that nothing is going to be said to make an individual who is looking for any excuse he/she can, including religion or lack of it, to not accept they have a problem and in order to keep their license they must follow the rules which may be uncomfortable or even down right disgusting!
You can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink. You can lead a human to AA but you can not make him NOT drink! He/she will complain about everything they can find to complain about until they talk themselves into drinking and it's all AAs fault for trying to force them to believe in a higher power.
I've never been there, and am glad my only habit (cigarettes) is still legal. However, I do know a couple of alcoholics and it won't work unless they want it to. One is dry, he hasn't been in a church in his entire life (except for friends weddings and funerals) thanks to AA. The other, who proffesses to be a Christian is drunk just about every day of the week and never dry.

UUuuummm, I don't see anybody denying that they have a problem, all we want is a choice of programs, not to "get out of" anything, not to "deny" that we have a problem.......Could you please explain why you think that if a person does not agree with and doesn't feel the 12 steps are right for them, that they are saying they don't have a problem???....It's a HUGELY false statement if that's what you're saying.

koan · Jun 22, 2004

But take a look at the success ratios of AA and *any* other program...AA wins.

But saying you're religious or belive in God does nothing to stop you from drinking..only action not words.

UUuuummm I don't see anybody denying that they have a problem, all we want is a choice of programs, not to "get out of" anything, not to "deny" that we have a problem.......Could you please explain why you think that if a person does not agree with and doesn't feel the 12 steps are right for them, that they are saying they don't have a problem???....It's a HUGELY false statement if that's what you're saying.[/quote']

Dixiedi · Jun 22, 2004

UUuuummm I don't see anybody denying that they have a problem, all we want is a choice of programs, not to "get out of" anything, not to "deny" that we have a problem.......Could you please explain why you think that if a person does not agree with and doesn't feel the 12 steps are right for them, that they are saying they don't have a problem???....It's a HUGELY false statement if that's what you're saying.[/quote']
I'm not saying that if a person says the 12 steps are not right for them they are denying their problem. I said if a person complains too much about "serving time for the crime" in a program as directed by the state then they are very likely denying a problem by trying to say the program is the problem.
It could be the problem is not alcohol/drugs (I hate saying that becasue alcohol is a grug but oh well...) but simply denying a problem with authority! However, if the person does have an alcohol problem, the denying is likely alcohol dependence related.
AA is required by the state. If it's not the right problem for you, then fullfil the states requirements by attending and seek out another method that will work for you. The whole thing that got this started was someone complaining that athiests should not be required to go to AA because it's Christian based. That is a bunch of bull. The BON chose AA because of thier success records, not because of anyones religious affiliation. Go with it, it can only help if it's not faught!

tommyperkins · Jun 22, 2004

But take a look at the success ratios of AA and *any* other program...AA wins.

Please offer some stats. Which program comes in second place?

Dixiedi · Jun 22, 2004

UUuuummm I don't see anybody denying that they have a problem, all we want is a choice of programs, not to "get out of" anything, not to "deny" that we have a problem.......Could you please explain why you think that if a person does not agree with and doesn't feel the 12 steps are right for them, that they are saying they don't have a problem???....It's a HUGELY false statement if that's what you're saying.[/quote']
That was said after many many posts with a particular person. It is being taken out of context, forget it. I am not going to try to re-explain myself.
Should all persons being reprimanded be given a choice? What makes an athiest special that they should set themselves apart from the mainstream. If you are going to live in this country, you are going to have to get used to the idea that everybody has rights (not just a few vocal groups); and that includes the BONs right to choose how you will verify working to correct a problem. Comply or give up your license. It is that simple. We all have the same rights. I'm not a Christian but have veryoften been subjected to Christianity throughout my life. It doesn't hurt in the least bit when you accept the fact that everybody has rights. The same rights.

serene992 · Jun 22, 2004

AA is a simple program for complicated people. An alcoholic is a master at denial, control and manipulation, negative tools used to justify the continually descending pattern of deterioration of the disease of alcoholism. The program began it's success by helping 1 then 2 then on and on of what is called low bottom drunks back in the 1930s. Faced with imminent despair and their near to death consequences of their alcoholism they found the first of the basic reasons why the program works - unconditional love and acceptance from a peer. One of the most powerful tools of recovery from anything including the loss of a child, recovery from a mastectomy and overcoming the effects of incest/sexual abuse as a child is to be in a safe, accepting and nurturing environment where one can share one's honest feelings with others who know exactly how one feels. Out of the meeting of 2 alcoholics filled with despair at their inability to stop killing themselves one moment at a time evolved a major discovery of the basis of all support groups today.

When young men and women join a military service they all go through a grueling physical, emotional and spiritual indoctrination to called boot camp. I believe the purpose of it is to quickly get the recruits into shape as an individual and as part of a unit, indoctrinating them with the rules, regulations and survival skills they may someday need in the performance of their jobs in the military. A rapid brain washing of individualization is replaced with the basic thinking necessary to survive and thrive as a unit. When they are dug in to a foxhole in a war zone and are being fired upon from all directions is the recruit going to take back his own way of thinking premilitary to problem solve how he/she should act now? No they are going to respond using the tools implanted in basic training. AA is basic training for the alcoholic - period. It's whole purpose is to provide the tools necessary for that moment when the alcoholics disease rears it's ugly head and demands another drink. Helping one another get, stay and live sober one day at a time is the purpose of the AA program from it's beginning. Foxhole tools for sobriety evolve through attendance at AA meetings and through reading AA literature. There are thousands upon thousands of alcoholics in remote areas that are recovering from their disease through correspondence courses with other recovering alcoholics and by reading the AA literature.

As far as protecting my license, I would go to whatever steps necessary to protect it. Even if you felt that you were falsely accused, there are some authorities in our lives that have the power we do not. Find out what they want and do it -period. Along the way sit back, relax, have a cup a coffee with the members and learn what recovery is all about. If you are not an alcoholic - great. You are a nurse and attendance at and learning from the program is a free gift to learn tools of supporting your patients, family and friends who are affected by the disease of alcoholism. Just remember to only attend "Open" meetings of AA. "Closed" meetings are meant for only those people who admit they cannot stay sober and want to learn how to do it. How do you know what is an "open" and a "closed" meeting? Ask. If it is closed then leave. Many areas have places called an Intergroup that has members of AA available to help guide you to a meeting and/or contact. Every phone book has AA listed with a phone number.

Wasn't it Shakespear that said "Me thinks you protesteth too much"?

MoJoeRN,C · Jun 22, 2004

Sounds like you found the same kind of AA that worked for me. And you said it very well. Denial is not something one does in a conscious state, it is part of the protection of self, based on beliefs and values. The 3 biggest tools of denial are 1) Rationalization 2) justification 3) Intellectualization. I can only speak to what my life was like, what happened, what my life is like now and what has worked for me. It is a program of progress rather than perfection. You are invited to take from the meetings only what you want and leave the rest there. I was one of those who only attended meetings because it was part of the aftercare plan and was mandated by the place I worked. I went to meetings 60 miles from where I lived for about a year. Finally as my attitutes, values and beliefs were restored to reality, I was able to attend meetings in my home town. I keep hearing that loosing your license because one does not attend 12 step meetings is not a choice. Not all choices are those we want to choose but they are choices irregardless.

mamabear · Jun 22, 2004

anyone who might believe that aa is not religious can read chapter 3 of this book:
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/index.html
not to mention that numerous federal and state courts have ruled aa to be religious.

where, when, and under what conditions?