"Just" a 2-year degree - page 5

Stopped at local pharmacy to pick up prescription. Asked pharm tech how her daughter was (she's a traveling nurse); she said great, we briefly discussed how she's deciding between staying and moving... Read More

  1. by   Alexsys
    Quote from SeanyRN
    Who ever said you dont have to get up a wee hours to earn your BSN. Earning a BSN is very difficult. Probably the hardest thing I have ever done. ADN nurses will never ever ever understand how difficult a BSN program is to go through. Its funny how ADN nurses always try and compare BSN degree to a ADN. If a BSN program is sooooooooo much easier why isnt everyone a BSN? And why dont BSN go back to school and get there ADN. There is no comparison. BSN nurses took that extra step in there education and made it more than just a 2 year degree.
    I said that I (ME) dont have to get up in the wee hours of the morning for my BSN like I did in my ASN program (O515). Maybe your BSN program differs from mine. I am in a bridge RN-BSN program and I never had to get up at 5AM for any of my BSN classes. Sorry but that is my personal experience. I didnt say that it was a piece of cake either, but it is much better than crawling out of bed long before the sun comes up. Show me in my post where I said earning a BSN was easy for everyone. Try reading it a bit more carefully.

    You sure have alot to say without actually reading posts first.
    Last edit by Alexsys on Oct 9, '06
  2. by   TRAMA1RN
    What is the difference between a 2 year degree and BSN? Learning to sit in an office and get away from the bedside nursing and fit into the management end, yes to move up the ladder of success you usually need the BSN, your BSN classes do not teach you any additional nursing skills or critical thinking (you usually already have this skill critical thinking, and just learn to hone it in your first years of nursing school, if not you usually do not make it through any program) they BSN programs teach you how to be more effetive as a leader and manager. They teach you how to do better self reflection and self evaluation so that you know how to seek out all of the other nursing opportunities out there that others may be overlooking. BSN programs are meant to teach you to be better communicators and be better diplomats. BSN programs are the goal we should all strive for if we only have a BSN but some of us have family constraints nad money constraints and time constraints and we have chosen to do the best we can with what we have available to us. Just think if we got rid of all the 2 year degree programs what kind of nursing crunch would we have then?
  3. by   lindarn
    Quote from evilnightwitch
    What is the difference between a 2 year degree and BSN? Learning to sit in an office and get away from the bedside nursing and fit into the management end, yes to move up the ladder of success you usually need the BSN, your BSN classes do not teach you any additional nursing skills or critical thinking (you usually already have this skill critical thinking, and just learn to hone it in your first years of nursing school, if not you usually do not make it through any program) they BSN programs teach you how to be more effetive as a leader and manager. They teach you how to do better self reflection and self evaluation so that you know how to seek out all of the other nursing opportunities out there that others may be overlooking. BSN programs are meant to teach you to be better communicators and be better diplomats. BSN programs are the goal we should all strive for if we only have a BSN but some of us have family constraints nad money constraints and time constraints and we have chosen to do the best we can with what we have available to us. Just think if we got rid of all the 2 year degree programs what kind of nursing crunch would we have then?
    We would not have the glut of nurses, who come out of school every year, and by the concept of supply and demand, we would be in a far better position to bargain for higher wages, better benefits, and working conditions. Nurses are a dime a dozen.

    New grads, (aka suckers), get spit out every year. There is no attempt at retention. And really, there is no reason to. Just piss off the nurses who are already here, and have higher pay, and bring in the next class of suckers and half the cost. And be sure and find a reason to get rid of the nurses who have been hurt on the job due to short staffing, and impossible workloads. Then there is the ultimate payoff, no pensions, because none of the nurses remain there long enough to qualify.

    The constant turnover in nursing, nurses working for agencies, travelers, etc, is a byproduct of the law of unintended consequences. The nurses don't stay long enough to be disgusted and motivated enough to make the necessary changes at the bedside that would benefit nurses much more. This of course improves the hospitals' bottom line, which is what their goal is.

    Hospitals actions, and administrative goals, by continuing poor working conditions, pay (especially not paying more for BSN,s and specialty certifications), and practices, rewards hospitals, and accelerates this practice. Their motives and actions, are so transparent, and unfortunately if it wasn't so so damaging to the nursing profession, would be humourous. We play right into their hands. It gives hospitals the excuse that, "well, we can't find enough nurses to work". Gives them ammunition to pressure the state boards of nursing, and our elected officials, to de- skill our professional practice.

    As I have stated in previous threads, what would nurses do if they had no other choice, but earn a BSN as entry into practice? PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, have all increased their entry into practice to Masters, and Doctorates. They have record numbers of applicants to their programs. None of them are heard whining about this, or crying with sob story excuses. And in case no one has noticed, they make alot more money than nurses do, are in far more demand, work to keeping their numbers low, and control their profession far more than nursing ever has, or will.

    As you, and others have already stated, you are already in school for almost four years to earn a ADN. What needs to happen is for nurses to use their clout, and pressure hospitals to have on site ADN to BSN classes in the hospitals, and LPN/LVN to ADN/BSN classes. Grandfather in ADN nurses and Dipoma nurses. I know that the ADN programs are hard, and take longer than two years to complete. You should come out of school with more than an ADN.

    I am convinced that the low education levels that nurses enter practice with, are a main factor in the successful deskilling of our professional practice by the hospitals, and insurance companies. You don't see them trying to deskill PT, OT or Pharmacy, do you? JMHO, and $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Oct 9, '06
  4. by   AggieQT
    This "topic" has been debated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER did I mention OVER AND OVER? again! I fear there will always be a debate because its the way we are programed. In our society we are told from the youngest age on that we must be the "BEST" at everything to be "successful" and earn "respect"... This fear propells us to always defend what we do, where we work, who we hang out with, where we live and so on... same thing with ADN vs BSN... we dont want to feel disrepected by others by our carreer and educational paths so we debate over and over and over on this board this very topic...

    LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD... BOTH ADN AND BSN educational paths are RESPECTED and HARD to accomplish... I know this because I have two cousins, one with a BSN and one with an ADN and have seen what each did to get through their programs... Im am attempting to get into a BSN program only because I am quite young and am preparing for the future so I can keep my options open at a graduate program...

    So PLEASE let us end this topic of debate... I am sorry to those of you who have fallen victims to societies ignorance and have labeled you "less than adequate" to your profession... WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE WRONG, and believe it or not in the minority, so why argue over it?

    As nurses we need to stick together, support one another, not rip each other apart or degrade what choices people have made in their carreer paths...

    In the end I believe is isnt about us, but the difference we make in our patients lives that really matters.
  5. by   RNsRWe
    Thank you to all who have responded to the original topic; it is appreciated. Those who wish to turn it on its side and argue about who's better, ADN vs BSN, I'll just ask you to refrain. It truly is a wasted discussion on both sides.

    I guess this thread has already run its natural course and perhaps it should be stopped before something gets ugly?
  6. by   SeanyRN
    Quote from lindarn
    We would not have the glut of nurses, who come out of school every year, and by the concept of supply and demand, we would be in a far better position to bargain for higher wages, better benefits, and working conditions. Nurses are a dime a dozen.

    New grads, (aka suckers), get spit out every year. There is no attempt at retention. And really, there is no reason to. Just piss off the nurses who are already here, and have higher pay, and bring in the next class of suckers and half the cost. And be sure and find a reason to get rid of the nurses who have been hurt on the job due to short staffing, and impossible workloads. Then there is the ultimate payoff, no pensions, because none of the nurses remain there long enough to qualify.

    The constant turnover in nursing, nurses working for agencies, travelers, etc, is a byproduct of the law of unintended consequences. The nurses don't stay long enough to be disgusted and motivated enough to make the necessary changes at the bedside that would benefit nurses much more. This of course improves the hospitals' bottom line, which is what their goal is.

    Hospitals actions, and administrative goals, by continuing poor working conditions, pay (especially not paying more for BSN,s and specialty certifications), and practices, rewards hospitals, and accelerates this practice. Their motives and actions, are so transparent, and unfortunately if it wasn't so so damaging to the nursing profession, would be humourous. We play right into their hands. It gives hospitals the excuse that, "well, we can't find enough nurses to work". Gives them ammunition to pressure the state boards of nursing, and our elected officials, to de- skill our professional practice.

    As I have stated in precious thread, what would nurses do if they had no other choice, but earn a BSN as entry into practice? PTs, OTs, Pharmacists, have all increased their entry into practice to Masters, and Doctorates. They have record numbers of applicants to their programs. None of them are heard whining about this, or crying with sob story excuses. And in case no one has noticed, they make alot more money than nurses do, are in far more demand, work to keeping their numbers low, and control their profession far more than nursing ever has, or will.

    As you, and others have already stated, you are already in school for almost four years to earn a ADN. What needs to happen is for nurses to use their clout, and pressure hospitals to have on site ADN to BSN classes in the hospitals, and LPN/LVN to ADN/BSN classes. Grandfather in ADN nurses and Dipoma nurses. I know that the ADN programs are hard, and take longer than two years to complete. You should come out of school with more than an ADN.

    I am convinced that the low education levels that nurses enter practice with, are a main factor in the successful deskilling of our professional practice by the hospitals, and insurance companies. You don't see them trying to deskill PT, OT or Pharmacy, do you? JMHO, and $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington


    Thankyou very very very much. AMEN!!!!!!!!
  7. by   lindarn
    Quote from Jezziemis
    This "topic" has been debated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER did I mention OVER AND OVER? again! I fear there will always be a debate because its the way we are programed. In our society we are told from the youngest age on that we must be the "BEST" at everything to be "successful" and earn "respect"... This fear propells us to always defend what we do, where we work, who we hang out with, where we live and so on... same thing with ADN vs BSN... we dont want to feel disrepected by others by our carreer and educational paths so we debate over and over and over on this board this very topic...

    LET ME STATE FOR THE RECORD... BOTH ADN AND BSN educational paths are RESPECTED and HARD to accomplish... I know this because I have two cousins, one with a BSN and one with an ADN and have seen what each did to get through their programs... Im am attempting to get into a BSN program only because I am quite young and am preparing for the future so I can keep my options open at a graduate program...

    So PLEASE let us end this topic of debate... I am sorry to those of you who have fallen victims to societies ignorance and have labeled you "less than adequate" to your profession... WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE WRONG, and believe it or not in the minority, so why argue over it?

    As nurses we need to stick together, support one another, not rip each other apart or degrade what choices people have made in their carreer paths...

    In the end I believe is isnt about us, but the difference we make in our patients lives that really matters.
    We wouldn't have to debate or defend anything if we had the same entry into practice as others who called themselves "professionals". Nursing is the only health care profession who call themselves "professionals", without having the same educational preparation as others do.

    Nursing is always having to validate itself, defend, and make excuses, for our low levels of education into practice. We make a futile attempt to validate our profession, with excuses, like, "well, not everyone can afford, or take the time to get a four year degree". How then, do other health care professionals manage to make it through, not only a four year college, but the post graduate education for their entry into practice.

    No one is saying anyone is less than adequate. What we are saying is that, in order to keep up and maintain our credibility with the public, we need to increase our entry into practice to at least a BSN. When the hospitals succeed in deskilling us even more, they will present it to the public with, "WELL, these medical assistants only have three months less college than the LPNs, and some have Associates Degrees, just like the ADN nurses, so there is no difference in the care that you will receive". And of course, the public, who doesn't know who is anyone, since there have been so many "flavors" of "nurses", over the years, will not give a hoot.

    They will of course present this as a "cost saving measure", because, well, "all those college degrees make nurses just too expensive, and does nothing but increase the cost of YOUR health care. Besides, what difference can a couple of college classes make, when all those nurses do is fluff you pillow, bring you fresh ice water, and wipe you butt when you go to the bathroom". You don't need a college degree for that, now do you" ?

    What's that you say? The public LOVES nurses, and we rate oh so high on ethics factors? Has it ever occured to you, that the reason the public thinks we are so wonderful, is that we provide all of the professional nursing care that they require to get well, work 27/7, and we are happy and content to receive High School dropout wages for all of it? I guarantee, if we ever started to demand the professional wages and benefits that we deserve, the public would have a field day with us, screaming that WE are the reason for the hight cost of health care. And how dare they, with only two years of college, demanding those kind of wages, when they don't even have a college degree". Fueled, no doubt, by the hospitals, who want to continue to pay us the substandard wages that we have been receiving since the beginning of time. Think about it.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  8. by   Miss Mab
    Quote from RNsRWe
    Thank you to all who have responded to the original topic; it is appreciated. Those who wish to turn it on its side and argue about who's better, ADN vs BSN, I'll just ask you to refrain. It truly is a wasted discussion on both sides.

    I guess this thread has already run its natural course and perhaps it should be stopped before something gets ugly?

    In all reality, if you start a post with the title "Just" a two year degree---what road did you expect to see the thread led down?

    If your original premise is that people don't respect or understand the 2 year ADN degree--and the general public does not---AND it appears to bother you---perhaps listening to those making cogent arguments for all BSN practice might start to make sense to ya.
    Maybe not...
  9. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from Miss Mab
    In all reality, if you start a post with the title "Just" a two year degree---what road did you expect to see the thread led down?

    If your original premise is that people don't respect or understand the 2 year ADN degree--and the general public does not---AND it appears to bother you---perhaps listening to those making cogent arguments for all BSN practice might start to make sense to ya.
    Maybe not...
    At the risk of taking the bait and volleying the nasties, I'll explain it simply: I vented my frustration at having someone who had more 'inside' knowledge than the general public, a pharmacy technician, consider the Associates RN equivalent to a bulls**t humanities degree. That considering we "only" went to school for two years, we ought to be down on our knees grateful for the dollars we receive each week. I was venting my frustration at the misconception that such a degree is passed as easily as most any other Associates degree, and that in fact it really only did take two years.

    The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.

    I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...
    Last edit by RNsRWe on Oct 9, '06
  10. by   SeanyRN
    Quote from lindarn
    We wouldn't have to debate or defend anything if we had the same entry into practice as others who called themselves "professionals". Nursing is the only health care profession who call themselves "professionals", without having the same educational preparation as others do.

    Nursing is always having to validate itself, defend, and make excuses, for our low levels of education into practice. We make a futile attempt to validate our profession, with excuses, like, "well, not everyone can afford, or take the time to get a four year degree". How then, do other health care professionals manage to make it through, not only a four year college, but the post graduate education for their entry into practice.

    No one is saying anyone is less than adequate. What we are saying is that, in order to keep up and maintain our credibility with the public, we need to increase our entry into practice to at least a BSN. When the hospitals succeed in deskilling us even more, they will present it to the public with, "WELL, these medical assistants only have three months less college than the LPNs, and some have Associates Degrees, just like the ADN nurses, so there is no difference in the care that you will receive". And of course, the public, who doesn't know who is anyone, since there have been so many "flavors" of "nurses", over the years, will not give a hoot.

    They will of course present this as a "cost saving measure", because, well, "all those college degrees make nurses just too expensive, and does nothing but increase the cost of YOUR health care. Besides, what difference can a couple of college classes make, when all those nurses do is fluff you pillow, bring you fresh ice water, and wipe you butt when you go to the bathroom". You don't need a college degree for that, now do you" ?

    What's that you say? The public LOVES nurses, and we rate oh so high on ethics factors? Has it ever occured to you, that the reason the public thinks we are so wonderful, is that we provide all of the professional nursing care that they require to get well, work 27/7, and we are happy and content to receive High School dropout wages for all of it? I guarantee, if we ever started to demand the professional wages and benefits that we deserve, the public would have a field day with us, screaming that WE are the reason for the hight cost of health care. And how dare they, with only two years of college, demanding those kind of wages, when they don't even have a college degree". Fueled, no doubt, by the hospitals, who want to continue to pay us the substandard wages that we have been receiving since the beginning of time. Think about it.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Only a BSN could understand how true this is.
  11. by   texas_lvn
    Quote from RNsRWe
    The people who responded early in this thread got that. Those who twisted my intent to mean that two year ADN and four year BSN degrees are equivalent did so on their own.

    I don't need to hear any more arguments, cogent or otherwise, for making BSN entry-level to practice. I didn't state my own opinion on that topic, either. It wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Maybe now you'll understand why I am dismayed to see the thread led down this way. Maybe not...
    umpiron: It seems that some people did not read the OP. It appears to me she started this thread to get some POSITIVE feedback and understanding, not to start a debate. Come on people, have some sensitivity, get over yourself, and allow someone to vent. Geesh.
  12. by   Kelly_the_Great
    Quote from Miss Mab
    In all reality, if you start a post with the title "Just" a two year degree---what road did you expect to see the thread led down?

    If your original premise is that people don't respect or understand the 2 year ADN degree--and the general public does not---AND it appears to bother you---perhaps listening to those making cogent arguments for all BSN practice might start to make sense to ya.
    Maybe not...
    There ya go with that useless "critical thinkin'" kinda mess...how pretentious of you...lol (j/k).

    Thing is, RNsRWe, what we're trying to say is, nobody's discrediting the hard work it takes to get an ADN. As a matter of fact, that's just the point, you're not given the credit you deserve, don't you see? You go to school 3 yrs. for a 2, when you could go 4 for 4, know what I mean?

    It is a logical argument that if the entry level was a BSN, then you wouldn't be getting the slack you're getting and neither would the profession as a whole.

    JMO. Please believe, I totally respect the ADN. My own Mom was a Diploma nurse and there'll never be another like her. I, myself, am an LVN currently in my last year of BSN. It hasn't been easy, I have children, a job, an hour commute both ways, lost my Dad (who was my only living parent) while in school and gone through many hardships but, you know what? If I can do it as an LVN only getting credit for the "basic care class" and only getting to "test out" of pharm, I know ADNs can. My school offers the whole transition on-line and you can get it done in just 1 year.

    Oh well. I understand the frustation and I understand the vent; I feel it too, I wish there were more unity in nursing with and amongst all of our colleagues. But why resist a valid solution?
    Last edit by Kelly_the_Great on Oct 9, '06
  13. by   nurse4theplanet
    If you want to turn this into a ADN vs. BSN debate feel free to start your own thread...or perhaps add to the hundreds that already exist.


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