DNP vs MD

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What is the difference between DNP and MD? How long does it take to become a DNP if you already have BSN degree? I thought nurses had problems with docs, but one day I visited the student doctor website and I was surprised to see how many student docs, docs, pharmacists were against the DNP program/degree and some did not have any respect for nurses. Many had horrible things to say about nursing and nurses, they said it's easy to become a nurse and not a lot of training is required. One person said, "lets face it, doctors can survive without nurses and they can have a resident do what nurses do, but if the hospital takes the doctors out the nurses will struggle and the hospital will die."

Do doctors forget that nurses are the largest group of healthcare? Doctors are never there to see the condition of their patients, they don't know if the meds are doing what they are supposed to do. Nurses are the ones that know the patients better and they let the docs know what is going on.

Some said," if nurses want to be called doctors they should go to medical school and not attending a new program DNP. To be a doctor they need more years of school." I swear some people think that years of school predict intelligence, years of school make you a better nurse, doctor, etc. Really, what's the difference in school years between DNP and MD ?

It's becoming a big war b/w nurses and doctors. Let's face it, one can't work without the other. They both need each others help.

My point is that our profession has done little to nothing to come out against these kinds of articles.

I can actually appreciate the physician perspective. It's much the same as the general nursing response to the skills creep going on with non nurses who are filling the role that would traditionally be filled by a nurse. We are all sorts of upset about that but cry when physicians feel the same? I'm having a little difficulty wrapping my head around this situation.

ITA. I have no problem with physicians getting irked, and have defended them for it on threads here before. I agree it's a shame that the few "squeaky wheels" in nursing get all the attention and publicity, and the larger NP and nursing community aren't being effective in setting the record straight.

Specializes in Legal, Ortho, Rehab.

In regards to the OP mentioning that some docs can do without us...

Ok fine get rid of all the nurses from the hospitals...let the docs staff em 24 hours a day. I would kill to see a doc on a med-surg floor answering call lights, defusing combative patients, chasing the old guy that wanders off, multi-task, insert a suppository (just because), defusing angry families, and just orchestrate a 12 hour shift.

In many states, DNP's do not have the same autonomy MD's possess. Some states are more liberal than others in how they define the scope of practice for DNP's. Instead of worrying about running down advance practice nurses, why doesn't the AMA worry about improving patient satisfaction and standards of care? Study after study have shown that patients who see NP's have far greater satisfaction scores than those who see MD's for primary care.

The AMA is purpotrating stories that NP's aren't licensed professionals and can't adequately or safely manage patients either in an in-patient setting or an out-patient setting. This has been shown not to be the case. If the AMA wants to state a position coming out against NP's..they can do it without impugning my profession. However, they see fit to employ scare tactics and fear mongering...not professional at all.

The fact that NPs have better satisfaction ratings from pateints has no bearing on whether they were treated correctly or not. As an NP, my focus is that of safely managing patients and not on how satisfied they are with the visit.

These MDs are probably just jealous that DNPs get to do much of what they do, without the headache of being responsible for the paperwork tunnels of billing and insurance, etc. plus they still get to have a life outside of their career, not to mention they're probably not saddled with as much student debt from med school. :}

so wrong in so many ways. Its call been worried about patient care. When you see that the DNP movement has not establish a curriculum which all DNP schools are going to follow and you also see that majority of DNP schools offer online education then you start to worry.

how many DNP schools have surface in the last 2-3 years? Do you know how long it takes for a medical school to be accredited by the LCME? YEARS. Medical school, all of them, follow the same guidelines and also residency training programs (accredited by the ACGME). I dont see that in the DNP process and its very worrisome. its very worrisome that x school can be teaching this and y school can be teaching that.

I remember when I was in medical school and there was this movement to make the anatomy class an online class and it was turned down pretty fast and that was only one class imagine if somebody wanted med school to become an online education.

Also, is not about life outside their career. Im a hospitalist and I have 7on and 7offs and my family is pretty happy with it.

I will give you the insurance issue. If you want to expand your scope of practice and practice w/o supervision not been a physician then you need to pay same insurance amount. Even a 3rd year Internal Medicine resident weeks from graduation needs a supervising attending as part of the admitting/discharge protocol.

I remember when I graduated from residency and 2 days prior to finishing I was precepting an admission that I did as part of the admitting team.

It has nothing to do with loans. If I plan correctly I will be debt free before Im 45 and I owe 200,000 dollars.

This is all about patient safety. Many nurses dont want to hear that and think its all physicians been jealous/over-protective of their career etc. But as long as the DNP movement doesnt show a definitive curriculum with test/board certifications etc to prove you know what you are doing many physicians are going to fight for patient safety first.

And regarding the point of NP's satisfaction between patient is higher vs physicians is interesting. How much time does a NP has to see each patient? what is their patient load per day? I remember in my 3rd year of Internal Medicine residency training my clinic director increase our time to see each patient from 20 minutes to 30 minutes as precepting with the attending will take off 5-7 minutes from that total time. And it was funny to see that my patients evaluations were improving, but only in the area of "time allowance/time with physician". It seems that because I was with my patients for 3-5 more minutes per encounter they thought i was doing more and/or they were happier even though I was not changing their medical plan when I saw them for 30 minute time slot vs the 20 minute time slot.

there has been studies that show that even a hug/more contact with patient (no sexual harrasment kind of thing) between a patient and a healthcare professional has improve patient/professional relationship.

It is truly a big ******* contest as a previous poster said. MDs are very prickly these days.

MDs see reimbursement going down, trouble paying off college loans, lack of respect from the public, admin getting into their undies. In the past, MDs were happy to give it away so to speak to nursing or anybody who'd do a lot of their work for them. It was fine with them and encouraged. After all who doesn't want to dump the not fun stuff on an NP or a PA so one could run off to do something fun on a sunny summer afternoon?

In the past being an MD was sort of a status symbol... RESPECT, nice wife/husband, car, house, retirement. All these things were automatic. Now not so. If they are honest, they'll tell ya that this stuff is what an MD must get in exchange for the long years or there is no payoff. Well, yeah. I understand.

But here's where they got in trouble. They got lazy and let some of the "insignificant people (us)" get some more edu/autonomy and guess what? Everybody found out that, wow, others can do a lot of what MDs do and do it pretty good. Hmmmm, corporate says. Maybe we need a few more of those that have a can-do attitude and not so much $ and ego-related needs, thus opening doors for NPs and PAs has been officially encouraged by the corporate powers that rule all. So now MDs are squirming, trying to come up with all sorts of crap to save something and get something, sort of (they really don't know). You teach the "underlings" how to read and write, and some of them surprise you and are wicked smart. So it's kinda sad to read some blogs or SDN (too funny actually) where in the now confused MD state, they can muster only a repetitive, "you don't know what you don't know", "I went to school and my teachers were harder than yours". I have to feel kinda sorry for the MDs that do this. I imagine them blindfolded and wandering around in the dark. They somehow, with every effort to discredit others seem to keep losing what respect they (used to?) have.

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But here's where they got in trouble. They got lazy and let some of the "insignificant people (us)" get some more edu/autonomy and guess what? Everybody found out that, wow, others can do a lot of what MDs do and do it pretty good. Hmmmm, corporate says. Maybe we need a few more of those that have a can-do attitude and not so much $ and ego-related needs, thus opening doors for NPs and PAs has been officially encouraged by the corporate powers that rule all. So now MDs are squirming, trying to come up with all sorts of crap to save something and get something, sort of (they really don't know). You teach the "underlings" how to read and write, and some of them surprise you and are wicked smart. So it's kinda sad to read some blogs or SDN (too funny actually) where in the now confused MD state, they can muster only a repetitive, "you don't know what you don't know", "I went to school and my teachers were harder than yours". I have to feel kinda sorry for the MDs that do this. I imagine them blindfolded and wandering around in the dark. They somehow, with every effort to discredit others seem to keep losing what respect they (used to?) have.

While I agree with much of what you said, the MD / DNP debate sounds very familiar.

On the same page as this thread, there is another thread where nurses are bemoaning the fact that MAs refer to themselves as nurses (I've heard mid-levels intimate to patients that they are equivalent to the MD, or at least not correct them when the patient refers to them as a MD.). There are also nurses freaking out that UAPs are being allowed to pass meds in certain clinical settings.

Hell, there's even an LPN vs RN debate that rages on and on.

So yes, I think that many of the MDs that are getting upset about the midlevels and the DNP are engaging in ******* contests and hysterics. But I also think that the voices of reason in this debate bring up valid concerns. There's a lot that isn't defined with the DNP, and that's concerning. Just as nurses are concerned with the expanding role of UAP.

Fribblet,

I agree with everything you say too (even tho it's disgusting..:D).

This all has to be fine-tuned and fast for everybody's sake. The other "battles" are never gonna get the level of upset that the "mid-level"/MD battle gets. You got your, "It takes special DNA to be an MD", "God-selected me to...." histrionics. Well, you know what I mean.

Fribblet,

I agree with everything you say too (even tho it's disgusting..:D).

This all has to be fine-tuned and fast for everybody's sake. The other "battles" are never gonna get the level of upset that the "mid-level"/MD battle gets. You got your, "It takes special DNA to be an MD", "God-selected me to...." histrionics. Well, you know what I mean.

Hehe, I'm going to change my name soon, but probably to something else that's gross.

I'm pretty sure the "I'm special because I went to med school attitude" (very similar to "I'm special because I became a nurse for the 'right' reasons/god told me to/I believe in angels.." crap) is indicative of professional and personal insecurity and will never cease to exist.

Specializes in OB-Gyn/Primary Care/Ambulatory Leadership.
Would a lawyer be mad/threatened if there was a 12 month course to give a paralegal all the rights/privileges of a lawyer? Would a nurse be mad/threatened if there was a 6-month degree that allowed EMTs or MAs practice nursing? What if those "degrees" in many cases were offered online?

Of course they would be mad. Is that surprising? Why should physicians not be the same?

But having a DNP does not allow an APN to practice medicine, nor does it give the APN all the rights/privileges of a physician. She's not filling the role of the physician. And someone who has a DNP did not "just do a 12-month course". THis person got their RN (3-5 years), then got their advanced practice nursing degree (another 2-3 years) and then got their DNP (another 1-2 years). That's 6-10 years of schooling. Hardly equivalent to an MA taking a 6-month course.

But having a DNP does not allow an APN to practice medicine, nor does it give the APN all the rights/privileges of a physician. She's not filling the role of the physician. And someone who has a DNP did not "just do a 12-month course". THis person got their RN (3-5 years), then got their advanced practice nursing degree (another 2-3 years) and then got their DNP (another 1-2 years). That's 6-10 years of schooling. Hardly equivalent to an MA taking a 6-month course.

Then what exactly do they practice? You see your own patients, you order your own tests, you make your own diagnosis, you order your own treatment modalities and you do your own follow up. All this without any physician input whatsoever in some areas. This sounds precisely like medicine to me.

In addition nursing course works is very different from even the undergrad coursework required of physicians. I wanted to take some upper level chemistry but have to take additional calculus to get into the year long calculus based physics course to get into the chemistry.

Specializes in OB-Gyn/Primary Care/Ambulatory Leadership.
Then what exactly do they practice? You see your own patients, you order your own tests, you make your own diagnosis, you order your own treatment modalities and you do your own follow up. All this without any physician input whatsoever in some areas. This sounds precisely like medicine to me.

That sounds like a philosophical question to me. What is the difference between the practice of nursing and the practice of medicine?

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