Has anyone left their employment due to mandatory vaccinations

imjustme123 · Dec 27, 2012

Seat belts are not 100% effective either. You must also be against mandatory seat belt regulations. So how often do you not "buckle up" to flaunt authority?

I actually know someone who refuses to buckle up because he is not hurting anyone but himself if he does not buckle up and crashes. He says it is stupid to make a law against it for that reason. I buckle up myself, but I see his point. People should have freedom of choice especially when it is not hurting another. In the vaccine debate, there is no clear risk vs benefit for vaccine recipient vs others etc. Someone may argue that, but it is very debatable. It depends on who you ask. At any rate, freedom of choice matters when things are not so very clear.

Laidback Al · Dec 27, 2012

. . . People should have freedom of choice especially when it is not hurting another. . . .

So what happens when you have influenza and you infect a comprised patient? From all of the negative comments posted about vaccinations here you would think that the only individual in danger is the nurse. Who speaks for the patients?

olddragger · Dec 27, 2012

If proper infection control procedures are done for influenza then the chance of infecting a patient is very very very small.

For example--how do we deal with MRSA? Isn't MRSA present in a lot of us? Don't we do the best we can to protect our patients from that without any vaccination or hcw treatment?

Now proper infection control procedures does include staying home when you are ill, washing hands ( which we really cant do as we should), using a face mask when needed, isolating infected patients, proper nurse patient ratio, proper room cleaning, masking the infected patient, restricting visitors and so forth. You know--many of the things that are not done as they should be.

One of the issues with influenza vaccinations and human behavior is that once a person receives a "vaccination" they think they are protected. Once a person thinks they cannot catch the disease then they can become more lax concerning the disease.

I will give you a personnel example-- an elderly friend called and wanted to visit us over the w/e. My wife had a cough and some minor sinus drainage for the past few days and just wasn't feeling well. I suggested that they may want to postpone their visit for a little while. They told me " Oh, don't worry I have had the flu shot last month". I tried to explain to them that the flu shot didn't guarantee protection, but, they just couldn't understand and came anyway. They thought they were protected but really they weren't.

It's good to have a vaccination available, but we need to be realistic about how effective it is.

mariebailey, MSN, RN · Dec 31, 2012

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
MarieBailey--thank you for that reference. I really can't speak to the vaccination/autism subject, it is complicated! I do agree that there does seem to be a lot of fear mongers out there.
I thought my reference was to the ties of the CDC to the pharmacological industry and the inherent conflicts of interests that brings?
Public Health Nursing does wonderful work. Thank God they are there.
Again I am not anti vaccination. I am agaisnt mandatory Influenza Vaccination or loose your job. And, please do not go to the "I can wear a mask at all times" option. To me that is not a realistic option at all. The way John Hopkins handled it is good. They stated that if you are within 6 feet (or in the room) with a patient then you must mask. That would be ok and logical.
For new posters etc , I cannot receive the flu shot because I have documented extreme reactions to vaccinations.
I do believe that this society has been sold a "bill of goods" concerning the effectiveness of the influenza vaccinations on the whole population. I also believe that the influenza vaccination has a definite use in high risk populations. Unfortunately the ones that are the highest risk are the ones that have the least response to it--the elderly
.
The seat belt analogy is an interesting one, but as stated you dont loose your job/career if you fail to use one.
ACUTE CARE FACILITIES WOULD HAVE NEVER MANDATED FLU SHOTS FOR THEIR HCW'S IF CMS HAD NOT PLACED REIMBURSEMENT (MEDICARE) AT RISK BECAUSE THEIR WORKERS WERE NOT VACCINATED. This is were it all is coming from nurses. It's not about all of a sudden acute care hospitals are interested in preventing Influenza!
I dont think there has ever been a documented case in which a hcw gave a patient influenza? Does anyone have any information concerning that?

Yeah, I totally agree with the absurdity of how your situation was handled, especially considering you had a medical contraindication to vaccination. Was this during the H1N1 pandemic?

As a side note, transmission of influenza from healthcare worker to patient is a common mode of acquiring nosocomial influenza, & it is often the culprit of facility outbreaks, according to the literature.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Dec 31, 2012

The US government's HHS Dept is one responsible for public health and making recommendation for > 90% HCW immunization rate by 2020. Article below has numerous links to studies showing HCW flu infection transmission to patients from NICU to LTC settings. Karen

Can J Infect Dis. 2000 Sep-Oct; 11(5): 225–226.

Influenza vaccination for health care workers: A duty of care

The medical literature has amply documented the transmission of influenza from patients to health care workers (HCWs) (1,2), from HCWs to patients (3) and between HCWs (4-9). The consequences of influenza transmission within the health care environment include morbidity and mortality among patients, most of who are at high risk for the complications of infection, and illness and absenteeism among health care providers. When outbreaks occur in health care facilities, absenteeism among HCWs may approach 30% to 40%, resulting in severe staff shortages, increased employment costs and the potential endangerment of health care delivery due to the scarcity of replacement workers (10-13).
Individuals who are clinically or subclinically infected may transmit influenza virus to others (14). HCWs who are ill frequently continue to work, thereby risking transmission of infection to patients and colleagues (10,15). Peer pressure from overworked colleagues, dedication to patient care, and concerns regarding financial and employment security may motivate HCWs to work despite illness. HCWs may also experience subclinical infection; these individuals continue to work, potentially transmitting infection to their patients. In a recent British study 59% of HCWs with serological evidence of recent influenza infection could not recall having influenza (16).
Vaccination of HCWs has been shown to reduce serologically confirmed influenza and influenza-like illness among the workers, as well as total mortality in the patients for whom they care (10,17-19). A randomized, double-blind, controlled trial was conducted over three successive epidemic seasons to determine the effectiveness of influenza vaccine given to health care professionals working in two American, acute care, urban teaching hospitals. Vaccine efficacy against serologically defined infection among HCWs was 88% for influenza A and 89% for influenza B (10). A recent randomized trial of influenza vaccination of HCWs in urban, geriatric, long term care facilities (LTCF) in Glasgow showed significant reductions not only in influenza-like illness among the vaccinated HCWs but also in the total mortality of the patients for whom they cared (18). Influenza vaccine programs for HCWs may also result in the saving of health care dollars and reduced work absenteeism, depending on factors that include the match between infecting strain and vaccine, strain virulence, and the presence of disincentives for staff to take sick time off work (11,13,16,20-22).
...Duty of care includes helping our patients (beneficence), doing no harm (nonmaleficence), and obtaining informed consent (autonomy). The use of the influenza vaccine to prevent illness in ourselves and transmission to others is part of this duty of care...

olddragger · Dec 31, 2012

I do grow weary of being told : "Duty of care includes helping our patients (beneficence), doing no harm (nonmaleficence), and obtaining informed consent (autonomy). The use of the influenza vaccine to prevent illness in ourselves and transmission to others is part of this duty of care...".

We are Registered Nurses and we know what our duties are. I believe we basically have blindly accepted that this vaccine is a "magic bullet" toward influenza and it does no harm to the recipitant. I would like to reference the articles containing the evidence that vaccinations seem to be a cause of increased autoimmunity disorders. Heard vaccinations also do not work when you are only inoculating for 3 out of hundreds of different infecting agents.

The studies that are listened in the article above are 13 years old. A LOT has changed in 13 years.

Within the article above it is interesting that some institutions may mandate Influenza vaccination because vaccinated staff has less sick time used? Now think about that for a minute. The hospital makes you take this shot because you will not be out sick as much! Oh boy--were does THAT line of thought stop? It is interesting to note that even though the vaccinated subjects used less sick time ( about 50%) for febrile respiratory sickness THEY WERE STILL OUT SOME DAYS WITH A FEBRILE RESP ILLNESS! That would indicate to me that the vaccination was not very affective --maybe 50%???

I did not see the study that an acute care hcw transmitted influenza to a patient? There are references to the well known studies within LTCF. Even within those I was never clear if the just the hcw's were vaccinated or were the patients also vaccinated also?

Do yall also realize that some nationally based medical associations are also suggesting ( at this point) that hcws working with severely immunicompremised patients need to take anti viruals!?

mclennan, BSN, RN · Dec 31, 2012

Goodness sakes, oldragger. In the time you've wasted writing these redundant, sanctimonious walls of text, preaching your belief ad nauseum, ad infintum, you could have spent looking for a new job, a new profession - some new pursuit that allows you total freedom of choice in every element and aspect of every day, ever. *eye roll* Maybe your new profession will also have an online discussion board you can have arguments with yourself on too.

My point is, I think you've made your point. Really. Dominating the discussion does more to end it than to keep it a healthy, ongoing dialogue.

imjustme123 · Dec 31, 2012

I've enjoyed reading olddraggers posts. It seems to me that unless someone posts that the discussion dies. Olddraggers interesting posts have kept discussion going.

On the point of vaccinations I think it boils down to whether you trust the government and CDC etc. to always give accurate information.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Dec 31, 2012

I think we need to have respect for each others opinions and everyone has a right to their opinion.

Allnurses.....

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Berardini · Dec 31, 2012

I agree that we should have the right to disagree. Vaccinations are not for everyone. Yes I have had all the main ones that are required, but I do not feel the need to get a flu vaccination. I'm not one of the people that think you shouldn't put unknown substances into your body or anything, but I do know that the only times that I've gotten the flu in my life have been the two years that i got the vaccine. And both times i was extremely ill after receiving it, so i personally choose to not get it. I have worn a mask during patient care through peak flu season, and yes it does slow down/ hinder care, but i find my health just as important as any of my patients or colleagues. If I'm not in good shape/ health how can I care for others? Looking from one perspective it is a good idea to make them mandatory, but that doesn't suit everyone. Thats my view on the situation.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Dec 31, 2012

I agree that we should have the right to disagree. Vaccinations are not for everyone. Yes I have had all the main ones that are required but I do not feel the need to get a flu vaccination. I'm not one of the people that think you shouldn't put unknown substances into your body or anything, but I do know that the only times that I've gotten the flu in my life have been the two years that i got the vaccine. And both times i was extremely ill after receiving it, so i personally choose to not get it. I have worn a mask during patient care through peak flu season, and yes it does slow down/ hinder care, but i find my health just as important as any of my patients or colleagues. If I'm not in good shape/ health how can I care for others? Looking from one perspective it is a good idea to make them mandatory, but that doesn't suit everyone. Thats my view on the situation.[/quote']
I had the flu so severely one time, I got pneumonia. Had no insurance. Felt like I was going to die. After that awful experience, I feel committed to getting the flu. I also caught the swine flu, when one of the kids I took care of at the Pediatric facility I work for, even though I got the flu shot. We had to shut down the facility for a week. I was able to get tamiflu treatment in the nick of time. I also had the flu vaccination last year, and four months later, when glue season was at its high, I got flu-like symptoms, but did not get the full-blown flu.
I'm very pro-vaccination. I sometimes feel harpy because my thought is "think about the children!"-Lol... but when you see pregnant women, young children dying of illnesses that can symptoms can minimize mortality, I find that necessary. Yes, there are politics of how vaccinations may have been handled in this country, but the actual benefit of being vaccinated outweighs such the ethical dilemma, as long as people are not having serious side effects and widespread root causations of illnesses, because that is individualized as well, and may not be related to the vaccination, and even that is open to debate. If anyone chooses to not be vaccinated, you breathe, kiss on a young loved one, and then they land in the PICU with a preventable, vaccinate-able (I know there is not such a word) illness where their morbidity and quality of quality of life may be diminished, that is somewhat unfair. Our community investment in our future is one of our obligations, we must foster safely, IMHO. On the other hand, messing with one's livelihood of being employed is unfair as well. Accessibility and affordability of anti flu meds should be an option for those who choose not to get vaccinations. Know the signs and symptoms of the flu and apply a mask ASAP. Find out if you have a fever and be permitted to go home immediately, wash hand thoroughly to prevent contamination, etc. Foster wellness programs to help boost immune health.
If that was an acceptable alternative, how many people who refrain from receiving a vaccine would choose to do that??? I think some people would STILL choose not to participate, and then THAT, in my opinion, is a problem.

olddragger · Jan 1, 2013

Ladyfree--thank you for posting. It was obvious that it was posted from the heart. You shared some very important experiences and personnel thoughts facing this issue and I appreciate that.

I totally agree with you that this is a dilemma.

I also want to thank those that posted in supporting the importance of continuing this discussion. I strongly feel that this is the only way to advance, personally and professionally.

After educating myself the best that I can, which included speaking with local immunologist's (who referred me to some good internet sites), allergist's, infection control nurse and relying on my own 35 years of experience (with 20 years of that being a utilization manager in areas including a level 3 neonatal nursery and pediatrics) I find a LOT lacking with the rational being used by acute care facilities to mandate influenza vaccinations. I believe as Nurses we have a responsibility to validate and understand treatments (which flu vaccinations are) that are ordered and to not just blindly follow directions because we are told to do so. Therefore I would like to continue this discussion.