Does it bother CRNA's that MDA's get so much more...?

Specialties CRNA

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Hey guys,

I'm not a CRNA yet. I want to be. I just got hired in a MICU/SICU. I was just wondering if it bothered any CRNA's the fact that MDs who practice anesthesia get paid wayy more for doing the same thing? I know some hospitals/facilities require the MDA oversee the CRNA, but does that equate to a couple hundred K more?

I don't know...I just feel CRNA's are not compensated enough for the ENORMOUS amount of responsibility and knowledge they hold.

Sorry if I came off a little gruff, I don't think I could have articulated my point nearly as well...I hope nobody intentionally tries to start trouble - we all have enough trouble on our own already!

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Specializes in Medical/Telemetry. Now ICU.

Wow. 1 little question turns into a war. Hahaha. I just wanted opinions from CRNAs. No one else, sorry but that is what I was asking in my question. It's hard to tell if anyone that even answered is a CRNA. So I will just leave it at that.

Happy weekend!:D

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CRNA's are stil acting under the MD license and direction.......and technically orders. I believe a MD needs to be present on induction and emergence. If you want the pay of the MD then go to school to be one. It taks 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, 3.5 years of anesthesia and another 2-5 if they specialize like Open heart or transplant near death anesthetics.

You are a nurse. A CRNA is a specialized nurse. YOu have 4 years BSN, 15-18 months masters, I year critical care experience and 2.5 years CRNA school. You go to school less and pay less liability, you will paid less, although still a great wage due to only go up. It really really annoys me sometimes....:cool: this line of thinking. NP's are not MD's and CRNA's are not MD's........you are nurses with specialized training that entitles you for more automony and responsibility and therefore more money, but you remain a nurse.

I know I will be flamed.:flmngmd:BUt here it goes......... If you want the pay and responsibility of the MD...go to school and be one.:sofahider.

I just hope that the draw of the money for becomming a CRNA is not all about the money but for the love of anesthesia...........Good luck! peace:heartbeat

Don't know if anyone has covered this post yet, but we are licensed as CRNA's and may work in an anesthesia care team model in some locations (which is still under the license of the CRNA and the MDA- not the MDA alone), and in many locations we work completely independently of an anesthesiologist and are responsible for our own decisions. You are correct that we did not go to medical school because we do not want to be anesthesiologists. They get paid 3 times as much as we do, but they spend twice as much time in a week at the hospital and have many other responsibilities outside of patient care (research, business aspects, etc) that keep them around even longer. You are also correct that we are nurses, which makes us better at actually "caring" for people than MD's, and it does not mean that because you are a nurse your anesthetic is worse than an MDA-

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Don't know if anyone has covered this post yet, but we are licensed as CRNA's and may work in an anesthesia care team model in some locations (which is still under the license of the CRNA and the MDA- not the MDA alone), and in many locations we work completely independently of an anesthesiologist and are responsible for our own decisions. You are correct that we did not go to medical school because we do not want to be anesthesiologists. They get paid 3 times as much as we do, but they spend twice as much time in a week at the hospital and have many other responsibilities outside of patient care (research, business aspects, etc) that keep them around even longer. You are also correct that we are nurses, which makes us better at actually "caring" for people than MD's, and it does not mean that because you are a nurse your anesthetic is worse than an MDA-

If you read the whole post.....:rolleyes:............you'd know I was spanked right and proper......:lol2:

AND.....I NEVER said nurse anesthestists were worse than MD"s.....frankly I believe them better just becasue they ARE NURSES. :smokin: Peace....

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CRNA's are stil acting under the MD license and direction.......and technically orders. I believe a MD needs to be present on induction and emergence. If you want the pay of the MD then go to school to be one. It taks 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, 3.5 years of anesthesia and another 2-5 if they specialize like Open heart or transplant near death anesthetics.

You are a nurse. A CRNA is a specialized nurse. YOu have 4 years BSN, 15-18 months masters, I year critical care experience and 2.5 years CRNA school. You go to school less and pay less liability, you will paid less, although still a great wage due to only go up. It really really annoys me sometimes....:cool: this line of thinking. NP's are not MD's and CRNA's are not MD's........you are nurses with specialized training that entitles you for more automony and responsibility and therefore more money, but you remain a nurse.

I know I will be flamed.:flmngmd:BUt here it goes......... If you want the pay and responsibility of the MD...go to school and be one.:sofahider.

I just hope that the draw of the money for becomming a CRNA is not all about the money but for the love of anesthesia...........Good luck! peace:heartbeat

CRNAs do not need MD presence for anything. We can function completely independent from them. We have the exact same scope of practice. Crna programs are a minimum of 24 months, most are greater than 27. Two years of experience is preferred as a minimum. is almost exactly the same between mda and crna. People should not post information they don't really know anything about. I am proud of being a nurse. My job is the exact same as a MDA, they don't do anything I don't.

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why are we confusing NP and CRNA. They are two different things. Some states including yours do allow CRNA's prescriptive authority for the case, but not like an NP. NP's and CRNA's have very different collaborative practices.

Crna's don't have collaborative practices. We do not need sponsoring MDs for licensure. We are independent providers.

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One thing to note is that generally the nursing world funds these studies, so OF COURSE it's beneficial for them to show that they're all equal. Like all research...it should be taken with a grain of salt. As much as we would all love if bias did not exist...it does, and companies tend to not be against twisting their data slightly if it allows them to look much, much better.

Wow! All research should be taken with a grain of salt? Spoken like a nurse/person who lacks the knowledge, intelligence, and/or desire to truly understand and evaluate research and the data it provides. While you are correct that it is prudent to be skeptical when reviewing and evaluating research data and results, to lump all research into the flawed, biased, and thus useless category is at best lazy and uninformed and at worst, ignorant. There are numerous studies proving that CRNAs and MDAs provide the same services with the same extremely safe and effective standards and outcomes. Nursing and non-nursing related research groups have both published and proven this fact with amazingly little bias. The only study that shows anything to the contrary is an ancient, MD biased study that they have been trying to hang their hats on for years. You are not a CRNA nor are you an MD, yet you speak with such certainty about which you obviously know very little.

Understand, however, that I am not on here trying to say we should be paid what they are making. Should they be making what they are making? I know some who should be making double and some that I'd pay to stay out of my loved ones' rooms. What we should be making and what they should be making is never the point in these threads; I never post on this subject, but the inaccurate info has driven me to post this. If you are not an anesthetist or an MD, you have no clue what our knowledge base is compared to theirs. You have no clue what is relevant within that knowledge base. I know you think you do, but you don't and you will not from reading the internet or from you day to day observations and conversations.

I'd just like to challenge the many RNs on here that are posting false info as if it were the Gospel...is this also how you deliver care to your patients? Do you order incentive spirometry when one of your patients spikes a fever? Do you believe that IPPB is actually helpful in treating atelectasis? Do you know what the latest research is regarding everything you do for your patient on a daily basis? Do you know what is the truth or are you assuming that what you were taught or what you learned from your colleagues is true? I fully support people stating their opinions on here and qualifying them as such, opinions. Stating blatantly false info as fact begs the question, why? The possible answers to that question are not pretty.

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Wow! All research should be taken with a grain of salt? Spoken like a nurse/person who lacks the knowledge, intelligence, and/or desire to truly understand and evaluate research and the data it provides. While you are correct that it is prudent to be skeptical when reviewing and evaluating research data and results, to lump all research into the flawed, biased, and thus useless category is at best lazy and uninformed and at worst, ignorant. There are numerous studies proving that CRNAs and MDAs provide the same services with the same extremely safe and effective standards and outcomes. Nursing and non-nursing related research groups have both published and proven this fact with amazingly little bias. The only study that shows anything to the contrary is an ancient, MD biased study that they have been trying to hang their hats on for years. You are not a CRNA nor are you an MD, yet you speak with such certainty about which you obviously know very little.

Understand, however, that I am not on here trying to say we should be paid what they are making. Should they be making what they are making? I know some who should be making double and some that I'd pay to stay out of my loved ones' rooms. What we should be making and what they should be making is never the point in these threads; I never post on this subject, but the inaccurate info has driven me to post this. If you are not an anesthetist or an MD, you have no clue what our knowledge base is compared to theirs. You have no clue what is relevant within that knowledge base. I know you think you do, but you don't and you will not from reading the internet or from you day to day observations and conversations.

I'd just like to challenge the many RNs on here that are posting false info as if it were the Gospel...is this also how you deliver care to your patients? Do you order incentive spirometry when one of your patients spikes a fever? Do you believe that IPPB is actually helpful in treating atelectasis? Do you know what the latest research is regarding everything you do for your patient on a daily basis? Do you know what is the truth or are you assuming that what you were taught or what you learned from your colleagues is true? I fully support people stating their opinions on here and qualifying them as such, opinions. Stating blatantly false info as fact begs the question, why? The possible answers to that question are not pretty.

I'd just like to point out that "uninformed" and "ignorant" are synonyms, so they can't be at opposite ends of the spectrum. :D

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
CRNAs do not need MD presence for anything. We can function completely independent from them. We have the exact same scope of practice. Crna programs are a minimum of 24 months, most are greater than 27. Two years of experience is preferred as a minimum. Malpractice insurance is almost exactly the same between mda and crna. People should not post information they don't really know anything about. I am proud of being a nurse. My job is the exact same as a MDA, they don't do anything I don't.

If you read the whole thread before you posted......I have surrendered......:cool:

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It is exactly the assertions by BCRNA that will cause MDs across the land to begin jettisoning their CRNAs, whether they have been with the group a long time, or not. The fact is, CRNAs have now engaged in terminology and rhetoric that places them squarely in competition with the anesthesiologists they may be working with. Physicians are not so dense that they cannot see the writing on the wall, and are beginning to take steps to eradicate CRNAs from their groups, either through attrition, or by overt housecleaning. Just FYI.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
It is exactly the assertions by BCRNA that will cause MDs across the land to begin jettisoning their CRNAs, whether they have been with the group a long time, or not. The fact is, CRNAs have now engaged in terminology and rhetoric that places them squarely in competition with the anesthesiologists they may be working with. Physicians are not so dense that they cannot see the writing on the wall, and are beginning to take steps to eradicate CRNAs from their groups, either through attrition, or by overt housecleaning. Just FYI.

Good luck to them! There isn't enough MDAs or AAs to do all the anesthesia cases in the US. AAs can never replace CRNAs. AAs are totally dependent on MDA supervision. Also, with the possibility of the renewal of a federal opt out with our current economic climate it is MDAs that should be worried about keeping their "supervising" jobs AKA sitting in the lounge drinking coffee.

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Specializes in Anesthesia, Pain, Emergency Medicine.

We have been in competition for a long, long time. The best thing that could happen is to do away with the "team" approach. Let the market decide who they want to use. The scientific evidence is already on our side that we are just as safe as the MDA. Those lies don't wash anymore.

Why does a physician feel the need to come to a nurses forum and opine?

It is exactly the assertions by BCRNA that will cause MDs across the land to begin jettisoning their CRNAs, whether they have been with the group a long time, or not. The fact is, CRNAs have now engaged in terminology and rhetoric that places them squarely in competition with the anesthesiologists they may be working with. Physicians are not so dense that they cannot see the writing on the wall, and are beginning to take steps to eradicate CRNAs from their groups, either through attrition, or by overt housecleaning. Just FYI.
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