Would You Accept Swine Flu Vaccine?

[pagandeva2000]

My facility had a town hall meeting and announced that this year, it will be mandatory for all direct care staff to get the flu shot, and that they expect the swine flu vaccine to be ready this year, around October, and that we would be mandated to take that as well to protect the patients we care for. I am not very comfortable being mandated to take anything...this would be a brand new vaccine. Why should I be the guinea pig? Thoughts?

[H_2_O]

Not sure if anyone is aware of the news lately, but it appears WE may be lining up for the troops this time, now that the military has been asked to help "manage" swine flu this winter. The proposal is currently awaiting approval from Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Personally, I've had it up to my eyeballs with the past and present administrations stepping way too far over their boundaries under the pretext of being the all-caring big brother.

Our rights in American and British society are being wisked away via the ol' foot-in-the-door technique.

"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs, when he first appears he is a protector."- Plato, The Republic

[misswoosie]

Yes, he did indeed. Here is what was reported about it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8161680.stm

The docs over at Effect Measure had some interesting things to say about how the GP's death was reported, as well as about influenza cases and PE.

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/07/swine_flu_how_not_to_report_a.php

Considering the tremendous amount of Tamiflu the UK has been dispensing lately, I no longer think it a good comparison. It is much more difficult to receive this antiviral drug in the US.

About pregnant women, and the risk of complications from influenza:

Here is an excerpt from The Great Influenza:

As far back as the year 1557, observers connected influenza with miscarriage and the death of pregnant women. In thirteen studies of hospitalized pregnant women during the 1918 pandemic, the death rate ranged from 23% to 71%. Of the pregnant women who survived, 26% lost the child. And, these women were the most likely group to already have other children, so an unknown but enormous number of children lost their mothers.

Yes, they are more at risk. And, they are at an even greater risk during pandemics which is why I began collecting info on these cases. It would be difficult not to notice how much the virus is targeting this group.

I do not have any comparable data on deaths from seasonal flu in pregnancy. Do you?

No I don't, but what I do know is that pregnant women and high risk groups will be excluded from clinical trials-they always are.That is why we are very reluctant to give preg women meds unless the risk assessment menas that they are more likely to suffer harm if we don't.

Put it this way-would we vaccinate pregnant women against anything else unless it was absolutely essential?

No-because there is no vaccine safety data available from clinical trials.

[Purple_Scrubs, BSN, RN]

Well, until today I was undecided but leaning towards the "no" side. After reading quite a few threads on this forum, I am now decidedly on the "yes" side. The more I learn, the more the risk-benefit ratio seems to turn towards getting the vaccine. I am 32, healthy but overweight (OK, technically obese), and an elementary school nurse. I think the only way I could be higher risk is if I was preggers, which fortunately is not in the cards for me.

I wonder why teachers are not considered higher priority? I worry about my pregnant librarian and other pregnant educators. I am really starting to dread this fall.

[CRIMSON]

I will not be getting the "swine flu" vaccine. This vaccine was rushed to the table and I expect serious issues just like before. I do not plan on being the guinea pig. Maybe after we see how the first million people react, maybe.....

[november17, ASN, RN]

I'll take it. What the heck. If something goes wrong, I'll be in on the class action lawsuit. Good times. We all have to die from something.

[steelydanfan]

No, I will not be taking this vaccine. I had not taken the flu shot for years before signing on to my current job, where I am exposed to a lot of immunosuppressed clients, and took them to "protect my patients".2 flu shots later, I have had chillls, ague, and malaise for 2 weeks each time. I refuse to take a vaccine that has only been clinically tested for 6 weeks.

[PatricParamedic]

I honestly salute those on this forum who are bright enough to take a "hold-on-just-one damn-minute" approach to our pandemic de jour.

In the world of shameful, heavy-hitting public relation stunts, precious few have risen to the pyramidian heights of the "Swine Flu" scare. I swear after 32 years in EMS, I am quickly reaching the point where I'm embarrassed to call myself a healthcare provider.

One need look no further than Pfizer, for example, and their continuing, unrepentant billion-dollar fines. Why in God's name are they still allowed a seat at the adult table? I suggest any forum professional who has not already, go out, fetch the book, Overtreated, and study it very, very carefully.

We, as so-called "intelligent primates" are allowing ourselves to be led by the nose ring of pharmaceutical bribery. God help us all.

Yet at the end of the day, I predict fretful American citizens will be able to look back upon 2009, and observe the following points:

1. The Swine Flu "epidemic" was shamefully overblown, with a tiny fraction of havoc the medical community "predicted."

2. Billions of extra dollars in vaccinations & unnecessary clinic visits poured into the coffers. "Bowling for Dollars" goes on.

3. "Pharmaceuticals gone wrong" continued to kill & injure as many citizens as would one, loaded-to-the-gills 747, dropping out of the sky, every single day of the year.

You want to talk about epidemics? Lets talk about the study after study that show the most dangerous thing a healthy person can do, is to get anywhere near those of us who play with needles for a living.

Lord, love a duck.

Trust me. You'd really rather have the Flu.

[indigo girl]

I respect the choice of anyone not to be vaccinated, but I have to say that there is a lot denial going on here with regards to what this disease is capable of doing.

"Sixty per cent of the deaths cover those who have underlying health problems," Ms Chan said.

"This means that 40 per cent of the fatalities concern young adults - in good health - who die of a viral fever in five to seven days.

These people were just unlucky, I guess...Many of these families are financially hurting from the cost of treating their dying loved ones in lengthy ICU stays. This is nothing to make light of.

This only since April, and pandemics can last at least a year or two.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/story/2071046.html

https://allnurses.com/pandemic-flu-forum/no-prior-existing-400466.html

https://allnurses.com/pandemic-flu-forum/evidence-swine-flu-399332.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hSjzUk4a0SoIMTOLww9vZDfTijgg

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26000408-12335,00.html

https://allnurses.com/pandemic-flu-forum/ecmo-will-we-410682.html

[PatricParamedic]

Ms. Indigo:

I'm not sure where you see denial on the AllNurses forums, but in view of the hundred thousand years of aggregate experience this forum brings to the table, what I see is an impressive percentage with a tendacy for caution. And when it comes to the knee-jerk, vaccination-for-all mentality that currently exists, I think the caution is refreshing.

The tragic deaths of innocent people of this virus is a truly crappy role of the dice, and those of us who care for others are both alarmed and saddened. But unlike the blinded by emotion O.J. Simpson jury, we - of all people - ought to be able to see the big picture. And the big picture is this:

At one point in the last 3 days there were 269,000 cases of H1N1 reported worldwide, and 2760 deaths. (death rate? .01%)

In the state of Wisconsin, where several truly sad stories occurred, there were 6222 cases, with 6 deaths. (death rate? .001%)

In the U.S. for the same time period, 56409 cases, 593 deaths. (.01%)

Is it damn crummy that these families are suffering? Of course it is.

But Lord have mercy, lets keep life & death in perspective . . .

Dr. Samantha Collier's study for Health Grades documented that - in her three year review of 37,000,000 clinical admissions - 585,000 American citizens died of treatment errors. Our aggregate attempt to care for our patients kills more of them every other day, than have yet died in this country from the H1N1.

In our unmitigated, over-zealous treatment protocols to toss money and drugs at every microbe that wiggles, we have become the 6th greatest "killer-disease" - surpassing diabetes, renal failure & Alzheimers.

I am not saying that we should shun vaccines at all costs, nor stop treating patients. What I am saying is that maybe, every single one of us who wears a uniform, might try stepping back, look at the downside of sticking a needle in every human who sneezes, and start focusing on immune system breakdowns.

There is no way in the world we as professionals can justify that a patient is 4 times more likely to die from our treatment, than he or she ever would be from getting this truly regrettable virus, from which 99% of us recover)

[DuluthMike]

I wouldn't take an untested unproven H1N1 vaccine. However, once there is sufficient evidence of its safety and effectiveness, it would be foolish to not take it.

[PatricParamedic]

duluth mike:

your answer is so naive i have to wonder what planet you're living on. "sufficient evidence of a drug's safety." are you serious?

glaxo-smith-kline knew all about the side effects of avandia. they admitted in court they lied to the fda in order to get it approved.

in their zeal to make billions they neglected to let anybody in medicine know their drug . . . oops, sorry . . . increases m.i. risk 43%.

you might want to read up on merk & their pharmaceutical poison, vioxx.

wyeth didn't mind fudging with the facts when it came to pushing effexor.

you surely are familiar with j & j's courtroom appearances over the fentanyl patch.

have you followed the soap opera over digetek?

warfan?

celebrex?

yaz?

there are currently 6,000 lawsuits pending over prempro, ortho evra, seriquel & neurontin.

there are 14,000 lawsuits pending over vioxx.

eli lilly just took a 1 billion dollar hit to settle 10,000 suits over zyprexa.

in the last 9 years there have been 65,000 lawsuits filed over dangerous and/or questionable drugs. every single one of them was "proven safe." unfortunatelt, the folks providing the proof are the drug pushers themselves.

"sufficient evidence of a drug's safety."

pfizer corporation managed to hit a whole new high (actually a shameful low) in federal fines last month - $2.3 billion. that's with a b.

every drug listed above was "deemed" safe. that's what drug cartels do, you see. thousands of deaths? that's called acceptable collateral loss.

so you still think getting a rushed to the market h1n1 vaccination would be foolish not to?

i say, wrong answer.

[RedWeasel, RN]

Ms. Indigo:

I'm not sure where you see denial on the AllNurses forums, but in view of the hundred thousand years of aggregate experience this forum brings to the table, what I see is an impressive percentage with a tendacy for caution. And when it comes to the knee-jerk, vaccination-for-all mentality that currently exists, I think the caution is refreshing.

The tragic deaths of innocent people of this virus is a truly crappy role of the dice, and those of us who care for others are both alarmed and saddened. But unlike the blinded by emotion O.J. Simpson jury, we - of all people - ought to be able to see the big picture. And the big picture is this:

At one point in the last 3 days there were 269,000 cases of H1N1 reported worldwide, and 2760 deaths. (death rate? .01%)

In the state of Wisconsin, where several truly sad stories occurred, there were 6222 cases, with 6 deaths. (death rate? .001%)

In the U.S. for the same time period, 56409 cases, 593 deaths. (.01%)

Is it damn crummy that these families are suffering? Of course it is.

But Lord have mercy, lets keep life & death in perspective . . .

Dr. Samantha Collier's study for Health Grades documented that - in her three year review of 37,000,000 clinical admissions - 585,000 American citizens died of treatment errors. Our aggregate attempt to care for our patients kills more of them every other day, than have yet died in this country from the H1N1.

In our unmitigated, over-zealous treatment protocols to toss money and drugs at every microbe that wiggles, we have become the 6th greatest "killer-disease" - surpassing diabetes, renal failure & Alzheimers.

I am not saying that we should shun vaccines at all costs, nor stop treating patients. What I am saying is that maybe, every single one of us who wears a uniform, might try stepping back, look at the downside of sticking a needle in every human who sneezes, and start focusing on immune system breakdowns.

There is no way in the world we as professionals can justify that a patient is 4 times more likely to die from our treatment, than he or she ever would be from getting this truly regrettable virus, from which 99% of us recover)

The problem with your death rates is that it is not accurate. Most pp with h1n1 are never tested so those who do have copd and die of pneumonia aren't suspected of having h1n1. It is blamed on copd or their weight or MRSA. How many end up with strep or staph infections that end up dying? Many. Bacteria loves this virus-sets up a nice warm cozy place to settle into. It is these infections that are blamed for the deaths. H1N1 is not often thought of. I see it all the time in our hospital. It is nowhere near on the minds of our docs to test for it. My fellow nurses think I am obsessed with the flu. Sorry but your death rates are off. Even the CDC has said back when they were testing more people that tenfold of the population probably had it compared to the numbers that they actually had. That has to be carried over into the death-maybe not ten times but I am sure there are those who die that are never tested due to the underlying conditions..