Just wondering what everyone's perspective is on this. The average RN is 45 y/o, and shortages seem to be cyclical. Do you believe that over-saturation of the market with new grad nurses will obliterate the long-term shortage? OR..as the economy continues to show signs of improvement (slowly, but surely..it is), will nurses leave the profession like they did before the economy tanked?
This article does a good job of putting things into perspective:
It takes more than book smarts to be good in any field. Having a B "average" doesn't necessarily mean someone isn't going to make a great nurse.
People talk about how hard it is to get into nursing school and how so many people don't make it out. I wonder what the stats are for the people who stay the course and the ones who fail out are. How do we know the lower end of the GPA aren't doing awesome and the 4.0s aren't the ones failing out?
Your post doesn't really make sense. It is the people with the lower GPA's failing, dropping out, or being asked to leave. During my BSN, this was definitely the case. Furthermore, many of the specialized clinical placements (OR, ICU, emerg) were reserved for people with GPAs of 3.5 or higher.
It does take more than a good GPA to be a competent nurse. However, those with a low GPA are already starting out on a slippery slope.
I have to make two comments. First of all I'm constantly hearing on AN about how nursing schools shouldn't accept more students because their aren't jobs out there. Why should they? Most nursing schools are not trade schools. They don't stop anyone from getting an Art degree or Psych degree even though the job market is slim for them.
If thats the rationale for not taking students then universities should completely shut down. Fact schools are not responsible for the job market. Students should research the job market before they start. Yes I know sometimes things take a turn for the worst while your in school. It happened to me I was just getting ready to graduate as the financial meltdown happened.
Second point: To those saying they don't feel the job market is ever going to get better that's like someone with depression saying they'll never be happy again. It just seems that way. The economy doesn't work like that. Just like it can't sustain a high point it also won't stay in the through. A have a little side business and I have definitely noticed things picking back up. Mainly with international customers but the trend is there.
You have to perserve and have faith that the universe will unfold as it should.
Ok I have a third point as well which really should be added to my first point. When there are not enough jobs for nurses students are crying out for the schools to restrict enrollment so they have a better chance in the job market.
BUT it wasn't too long ago that on AN all you heard in the student forums was how competition was so tight to get into school and how they should accept more students etc etc etc
I'm wondering if there is a schools admissions counsellor out there somewhere ripping their hair out asking us to all make up our minds.
But as with all things our perspective of things will change depending on what stage of the process we are.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I have to make two comments. First of all I'm constantly hearing on AN about how nursing schools shouldn't accept more students because their aren't jobs out there. Why should they? Most nursing schools are not trade schools. They don't stop anyone from getting an Art degree or Psych degree even though the job market is slim for them.
*** You are missing the point. University Art and Psych departments did not greatly expand in response to false and self-serving shortage propaganda. In my state, in order to meet the supposed nursing shortage, the university and community college systems has greatly expanded their nursing programs. Schools that used to graduate one class a year have gone to two, or even three. Schools that never had nursing programs now do. In addition several for profit "RN mills" have opened. These are particularly evil in my mind as they charge fantastic amounts of money. In a state where many new grads start around $20 an hour I have met new grads who graduate with nearly $100K in student debt for an ADN.
There was never any need for the public community colleges and universities to tripple their output of nursing grads and there certainly is no need for these for profit programs that exploit desperate students.
*** You are missing the point. University Art and Psych departments did not greatly expand in response to false and self-serving shortage propaganda. In my state, in order to meet the supposed nursing shortage, the university and community college systems has greatly expanded their nursing programs.
No I didn't miss the point AT ALL. It has been well documented that graduates with Art, Psychology and Journalism degrees has increased by more than 100% since the mid 80's yet hiring in these areas has remained constant leaving a lot of college graduates working in a field other than what they majored in. The colleges adapted to meet the demands of the student. I can think of quite a few universities that advertise and promote their psych and art programs with "false and self serving propaganda". Nursing is not a special and unique field that is completely different to any other major. Education is a product. If schools see a market or demand they will package and promote it.
I have posted this link before but I will post it again. Please check your facts before telling me mine are wrong.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
no i didn't miss the point at all. it has been well documented that graduates with art, psychology and journalism degrees has increased by more than 100% since the mid 80's yet hiring in these areas has remained constant leaving a lot of college graduates working in a field other than what they majored in. the colleges adapted to meet the demands of the student.
*** sure, that is the normal expected thing. however if there is a lot of false propaganda put out by those that hire art & psychology grads in an effor to creat a glut of art & psychology so as to depress wages & working conditions i have missed it. consider nursing. i can't tell you how many articles i have read about the supposed "nursing shortage" from sourses like time magazine, usbls, yahoo and all of the main stream media but it has been a lot.
i can think of quite a few universities that advertise and promote their psych and art programs with "false and self serving propaganda".
*** sure, that is normal, but different than what has happend to nursing. it's different people putting out the propaganda. as you say education is a product. it is normal for those with a product to sell to market it. the difference is that those universities do not have agencies of the our government and nearly all the main stream media putting out false propaganda about the shortage of art & psych grads.
nursing is not a special and unique field that is completely different to any other major.
*** one would think this so obvious as to not even need pointing out.
education is a product. if schools see a market or demand they will package and promote it.
*** yes, this is common knowlage.
i have posted this link before but i will post it again. please check your facts before telling me mine are wrong.
*** i don't see the relivance of the opinion piece you posted. however as you are claiming somebody told you your facts are wrong and i certainly did not do that i will assume this part of your reply is to some other poster and not me.
Comparing nursing to a psych/art degree is like comparing apples and oranges. Accrediting agencies have the ability discourage new nursing schools from opening, deny institutions accreditation, and stop promoting nursing shortage propaganda. TothepointLVN is right. Education is a product, but public universities/CC's aren't for-profit institutions, and have no reason to continue increasing enrollment numbers-especially with the budget crisis that most universities are facing.
If nursing wants to be viewed as a profession (vs a trade or blue collar job), for-profit RN mills should be HIGHLY discouraged as they HIGHLY discredit nursing. You don't see MDs/PharmDs/DPTs/OD/DDS's getting their education @ ABC Educators. Their accrediting agencies would laugh. A lot of health professions accept only quality applicants into a cohort, even if a few slots remain unfilled. They do not fill the unfilled slots with unqualified candidates. Nursing should follow.
Nursing education should have less fluff, and should be more difficult. A lot of the BSN curriculum is garbage. Unless you're getting a degree with an emphasis in teaching, A higher-level degree should equal a higher level of clinical hours. Period. Nursing education should be more hospital-based. That way new grads could hit the ground running which would decrease orientation costs for hospitals and make new grads more employable. That way the 25% of new grads who quit within the first year could have the option to quit sooner and be weeded out which would in turn open up more job opportunities for people who actually want to be nurses.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Every prediction made by people who stand to lose something from a drop in enrollments has been wrong. What's really been churned out is wacky and misleading statistics about growth curves age+ or _x times the babyboomer gen X upside down please save my job ratio. That's the simplified version.
You don't even need statistics to opine on the subject matter when there are several soothing-sounding factoids that will work just as well, but refuse to look at the larger trends and emerging alternatives.
1. The baby boomers are set to retire en masse which will create a huge demand!
Retirement behaviors are very unpredictable at present. In the days where most people hit 65, have a party and leave forever you could predict pretty accurately, but as mentioned the economy and the fact that we as a society tend to get healthier as time passes means many people don't want to retire.
2. The giant baby boom generation will need nurses/people will always get sick argument also discounts the trend of hiring unlicensed techs or contract employees rather than full-time RNs. It's already started to happen.
3. online programs, accelerated programs and other recent innovations in nursing education greatly add to the numbers aka it takes less time to graduate and get an RN license now - there is even a book out now that outlines how to get done fast-fast-fast!
4. "Obamacare" will cause millions of people who were uninsured to seek healthcare services. Many uninsured are young people who don't see the doctor very often anyway. A large number have sought healthcare in the meantime through the Emergency Room by using it as a walk-in outpatient clinic.
I'm really not trying to tell people to stay away from nursing but that the wishful thinking I sometimes read here has a pretty good chance of coming back to bite you in the butt. And that's plain horrible to go through. I would so love to be proven wrong about this.
joanna73, BSN, RN
4,767 Posts
Your post doesn't really make sense. It is the people with the lower GPA's failing, dropping out, or being asked to leave. During my BSN, this was definitely the case. Furthermore, many of the specialized clinical placements (OR, ICU, emerg) were reserved for people with GPAs of 3.5 or higher.
It does take more than a good GPA to be a competent nurse. However, those with a low GPA are already starting out on a slippery slope.