I found this article in my E-mail recently, it was a pretty good read, and if one goes around the site they will see several other complaints by preceptors pushing the same issue.
I have seen this in a few students I precept also (which I only do now from certain schools). I had a few kids from online universities (the for profit crap-wagons) as students a few times. It was awful. None of them had any clue how to diagnose, prescribe, or even really do a true physical exam. Basic stuff they should have learned in nursing school, much less an MSN program.
Get with the program people, you go to these for profit schools with no requirements besides a BSN degree, don't learn squat, and expect us to precept you?
Sorry this is real life.
This message is brief, and to all those people who attend these junky schools. Stop making our profession look terrible. If you cant get into a real school, then many you should just stay a nurse, you probably aren't cut out for the real deal MSN level thinking.
Yeah, yeah, I know I sound harsh, but your type are the reason that our profession is looked down upon by so many. Personally, I am pretty well respected, but every time I start a new job or meet a new doc or whatever, I have to prove myself, and it is because of sloths that attend these programs and lower our standards.
So the take-home is. Don't go to a crappy school and expect to find a preceptor, we know better than to waste our time with you. Go to a well respected school and we will be glad to help you out the best we can and accommodate you.
I already wrote a nice long, nasty letter to our credentialing agencies telling them this, of course they turn a deaf ear. The credentialing groups for nurse practitioners is weaksauce, and ran by a bunch of DNP- think they know it alls that are trying to I don't know what, by pumping as many nurse practitioners into the market, ignoring quality.
I cant wait for the flames from this one, people on this forum seem to resent the truth, and sit in their little happy-bubble world full of white coats, stethoscopes, and hopes for a big easy paycheck.
And to those who come here, from those, for profit schools and try to tell us that they were one of the students who "went above and beyond, because learning is about what you put into it" I have one thing to say. you already told us what you put into it by going to one of these programs. A lot of money and no thought. School is supposed to filter out those who aren't fit. PA and MD/DO schools do this. Yeah, every once in a while a junky one slipps by, but you know its a lot less frequent than NP schools.
Just fess up and admit that this is all true.. Preceptors are seeing it everywhere.
NP education is a lax joke with fluffy requirements.
I also gave psychguy and Jules A a personal spot to like this post. Why? Because they have great wisdom and common sense, and you all don't like what they say, because its the truth.
BS-just because you didn't go to one of those "crappy" schools does not make you any more qualified or high and mighty compared to others who did.
I went the traditional route for my ASN and BSN and did not learn **** until I was in the work force. I was only as good as my preceptors that trained me-and thank god I had some excellent ones that did not carry your nasty opinion. You want high quality NP's coming into the work force, then I suggest you get off your soap box and precept if you are so damn good, but maybe you're not that good and no one should be learning from someone who has their ego and opinions so far up their ass.
Well, someone has a chip on her shoulder ... Why so nasty?
BS-just because you didn't go to one of those "crappy" schools does not make you any more qualified or high and mighty compared to others who did.
I went the traditional route for my ASN and BSN and did not learn **** until I was in the work force. I was only as good as my preceptors that trained me-and thank god I had some excellent ones that did not carry your nasty opinion. You want high quality NP's coming into the work force, then I suggest you get off your soap box and precept if you are so damn good, but maybe you're not that good and no one should be learning from someone who has their ego and opinions so far up their ass.
These aren't my opinions. It's my observations from being an APRN student and part of an interdisciplinary focus group on NP education in my city. The director of my clinical preceptorship site in an MD. He will not take on for profit online students or anyone without solid RN experience. We are expected at the very least- as students - to function at the level of an M4 doing SubI. The fact is that the online for profit schools cannot guarantee the quality of their students. Try telling a person that sacrificed a significant portion of their life to complete 4 years of a BS degree, 4 years of medical school, 4 years of residency and a postdoctoral fellowship - who has no concept of online schools for clinical professions because they don't exist in his world, that an online education or having no RN work experience provides adequate preparation. I could sit there and advocate for someone until I'm blue in the face - it's not going to go anywhere because there is no such thing for MD, DO, or PA and they cannot comprehend how it's even possible that these programs exist.
I use to precept all the time, but over the years I found that I was burning out on the process. Over time I developed my own personal rules on who and when I precept. I will not accept any students from Walden, Chamberlain or Kaplan as I have had more than one bad apple from these particular programs. I have also had students from the local university who were close to graduation who scared the crap out of me so it can be a crap shoot as with any student.
I am too old for the first semester students and prefer to take on those close to graduation to help them put it all together before they take on their new role as NPs. However, I also need some months free of precepting. In our office we rotate and never have more than two students at any given time and we allow them to follow other providers from time to time as there may be an interesting patient or an opportunity to see how another provider interacts in a given situation.
Like with everything in life I had to find the right balance that worked for me.
I will agree that you need a solid RN background, but that is for any school furthering on to NP. I had 9 years under my belt before I decided to go further. I hate to say it but some times, traditional schools don't work for the full time family oriented nurse, and this is just the way society is taking us. Gonzaga is an online for profit school and it doesn't seem to carry the stigma.
JUST FYI-Where I live they except 25 NP's per year PERIOD. the cut off date is Jan 15 of each year and its highly competitive. Personally I compared the local school to the "crappy schools" as you called and most of the learning is done with your preceptor. Have you been NP long enough that you don't remember your schooling days and your inexperience? Get off your high horse, YOU make the NP profession look bad ********. Remember there is a provider shortage and we all have to get there some how. Shame on you!
Why are nurses so entitled? You don't see the medical community clamoring for all pre-meds to make it into med school. It's cut-throat for a reason.
I will agree that you need a solid RN background, but that is for any school furthering on to NP. I had 9 years under my belt before I decided to go further. I hate to say it but some times, traditional schools don't work for the full time family oriented nurse, and this is just the way society is taking us. Gonzaga is an online for profit school and it doesn't seem to carry the stigma.
Gonzaga is a well-known private not-for-profit Catholic university that is over a hundred years old and has a lot of clout on the West Coast. I know several people personally in WA that attend the program.
Imagine if medical schools catered to full-time family oriented pre-meds. It would never happen. Medical school is a sacrifice for a greater return at the end. That is why salaries are top tier and the competition is fierce. It isn't a God-given right to every person that applies.
Just stop, your posts make less sense as you go on.
Why are nurses so entitled? You don't see the medical community clamoring for all pre-meds to make it into med school. It's cut-throat for a reason.
You are a part of the problem.
dragner is spot on. application for np school took me 3 hours and I was accepted two days later. no questions asked. studied veery little for gre. now it's not even required. no interview.
my application to a DO school took me a week on and off. MCAT took a couple months to study for. did good enough to go MD but that's only bc I put in more time and effort than most. had to go to an interview. got accepted a couple weeks later.
this his is at the same school.
do and md schools are much more competitive.
organic chem and physics was more difficult than any class I had taken before. even in msn.
now now to have no life for 8 years. lol.
ive done both application cycles so I know the comparison.
dragner is spot on. application for np school took me 3 hours and I was accepted two days later. no questions asked. studied veery little for gre. now it's not even required. no interview.
my application to a DO school took me a week on and off. MCAT took a couple months to study for. did good enough to go MD but that's only bc I put in more time and effort than most. had to go to an interview. got accepted a couple weeks later.
this his is at the same school.
do and md schools are much more competitive.
organic chem and physics was more difficult than any class I had taken before. even in msn.
now now to have no life for 8 years. lol.
ive done both application cycles so I know the comparison.
All these effort won't mean anything at the end since NP are as good as MD/DO... Look at the research that have been done in this subject!
I actually don't know if they pay them or not in my area. I work at a teaching hospital that is attached to a UC medical school as an RN and do clinical rotations as an NP at different teaching hospital that is attached to the same medical school. I know that at my job I get many an abandoned med student as an RN and I love working with them and teaching/trying to get them passionate about psych. When I do inpatient rotations as an NP intern I'm paired with an intern year resident and a med student. While the attendings do broad teaching activities, the residents manage a caseload, the med students take over resident duties on simple cases with their paired resident and I basically get my choice of resident and cases and generally work on more complex cases. (I work with all my residents at my paid job and they're awesome and will drag me in to really interesting cases as an intern).
I know that on my end the attendings are faculty at my NP program and teach a lot of the Psych classes so they get reimbursement from that. The residents I'm sure don't get any reimbursement (and I really wish they did because they're amazing).
My understanding is that residents are paid- though not as much as they will make later on. One of the missions ( maybe the primary mission) of the teaching hospitals is to train residents. I also think hospitals get a lot of money from Medicare to do this. I would think attendings in teaching hospitals Are well compensated. How does a hospital become a "teaching hospital". The ones I am familiar with served "the underserved" which automatically gave the med students and residents a lot of patients to learn from. I never quite understood how nursing programs and clinicals were formulated and why. The old diploma schools were richer, I am told.
I find your comments very offensive about online np programs. The reason why many people end up going to online np school is there are not enough teachers at their local universities to teach. Online classes allow more flexibility for teachers and students. Most np classes are online now even when they are through the local universities. I tried to get in my local program. I had the same thoughts as you that the on campus programs would be better. I did not get on because there were only 8 spots and 200 applicants. I
ended up going through an online school. I found out that the on campus program is mainly on line too. It was no different then the online program. I do agree that the requirements for np programs is lacking. The np programs are expecting students to teach themselves and the preceptors to fill in the gaps. It was very disappointing. I felt like if you can pass a test and complete hours you passed.
elkpark
14,633 Posts
Well, someone has a chip on her shoulder ... Why so nasty?