Why with hundreds of unfilled positions is no one hiring new grads.
What is the logical reason behind this? Is there a logical reason?
Has this ever happened in the history of nursing before?
I feel like I am not apart of the nursing community, I feel as if I am viewed as lesser and treated in conjunction with that stereotype.
I feel like we are being alienated and black balled. None of us can start our careers if we can't get a chance from anyone, and if we are the future it seems not so smart to make us all offended and scorned because at some point we are going to be needed. If there is no new grads coming in, there are no future nurses being secured.
We are all going to be indifferent to the hospitals that would not help us start our career, so when I get experience and in the future when those same hospitals have no nurses because they shunned a whole generation of nurses. Most of the new grads I know feel the same way.
I don't think it's the experienced nurses hedging us out or anything; I think it's just too many qualified applicants. Think about it: with any downturn in the economy, you might expect several variables: A) more people going back to school for job advancement, B) more retirement age nurses working past retirement to earn money, and C) nurses that might not have been working (or working in other areas), coming back to the field. All of those factors mean more qualified nurses are available to choose from (rather than new grads).
Also, like you mentioned, with the abundance of new grads, of course the BSN or MSN-prepared will probably have first pick. I am a diploma-educated nurse, now pursuing my BSN, but believe me, a lot of my classmates had difficulty landing a job, especially because our area prefers BSN grads.
You're right; I almost wish there was a class on this sort of thing before you start nursing school...kind of like the mandatory exit counseling they do on student loans...
I dont think the older generation is pushing us out either, I just want to believe its some reason that is easily fixable? Plus, I think I am just equating interview, open position, NM's within the same age range, so I want to blame the NM. I know I have come so close to some positions, I know I have but I know in the end that experience was just the smarter way to go.
I think i am going to get the phone books for all the surrounding counties by me, and go to every medical place I can find and fill out application until my car breaks down and I cant drive anymore. So, many people are becoming nurses for all the wrong reasons. I really really love doing what a nurse does. Long story, but my life didnt provide many oppurtunities for me to feel good about myself. I never felt such a rewarding (happy, i cant explain feeling) as I did reducing another person's suffering. Its like its my source of happiness, and I would not want to do anything else. I guess I just have to give my all, like I do to everything else. I will do whatever it takes.
OK, let me chime in here. Not only are new grads expensive to orient, even when off orientation it takes almost a full year before that nurse is actually pulling his/her own weight in the unit. Keeping that in mind, lets say that a manager hires a group of new grads. How many will have quit before or around that year before the manager ever gets a return on investment.
New grads don't work out for a variety of reasons other than just not being able to cut it clinically. Many sign up knowing they will have to work nights, weekends, and holidays. When reality hits some of them hit the road. Others quit knowing full well that this poistion is just to get thier "foot in the door". Why on earth as a manager would I train you so that before I get a ROI you go somewhere else and that manager benefits from what I paid for?
Like many said experienced nurses can hit the ground running in a short time. All they need to learn are the policies, charting etc. They don't have to taught how to care for a patient.
I was came to the ICU where I currently work with 17 years of ICU experience. I was done with orientation in slightly less than 3 weeks. By the end of the of the 4th week I was not only holding my own, but had something left over to give to others in the way of help and awareness of what was going on in the unit.
New grads in this unit get 16 weeks of orientation including a critical care class. When off orientation it takes another year before they are even close to full contributing members of the unit. So in reality our manager doesn't get a ROI on a new grad in my situation until approaching year 3. About half of the new grads hired would have moved on before that for a variety of reasons.
Hire an experienced nurse and you get results almost right away.
Want a tip. When interviewing for your first job, convince the manager that this is your dream job, not just a stepping stone to something better.
Here is another pro-tip. Your interviewer will ask you this question almost 100% of the time
Q. Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
Give this some serioius thought because this question is a potential landmine.
Nursing has got to be one of the worst professions to enter regarding job prospects.
It makes me sick to think of all the people who continue to enter colleges across the country for nursing. There are thousands who will never have a first nursing job. Just in my state alone there are so many schools churning out nurses. Just my college alone could fill any open position across my state. The majority of graduates simply will never work in nursing. It's likely that just Illinois nursing grads alone could alone could populate every entry level position throughout the country. Many of these programs produce 100+ grads per year, and graduate bianually.
Illinois nursing programs:
Associate Degree programs: 48
Bachelor Degree programs: 29
Master Degree direct entry programs: 4
How many nursing programs do other states have currently?
OK, let me chime in here. Not only are new grads expensive to orient, even when off orientation it takes almost a full year before that nurse is actually pulling his/her own weight in the unit. Keeping that in mind, lets say that a manager hires a group of new grads. How many will have quit before or around that year before the manager ever gets a return on investment.
New grads don't work out for a variety of reasons other than just not being able to cut it clinically. Many sign up knowing they will have to work nights, weekends, and holidays. When reality hits some of them hit the road. Others quit knowing full well that this poistion is just to get thier "foot in the door". Why on earth as a manager would I train you so that before I get a ROI you go somewhere else and that manager benefits from what I paid for?
Like many said experienced nurses can hit the ground running in a short time. All they need to learn are the policies, charting etc. They don't have to taught how to care for a patient.
I was came to the ICU where I currently work with 17 years of ICU experience. I was done with orientation in slightly less than 3 weeks. By the end of the of the 4th week I was not only holding my own, but had something left over to give to others in the way of help and awareness of what was going on in the unit.
New grads in this unit get 16 weeks of orientation including a critical care class. When off orientation it takes another year before they are even close to full contributing members of the unit. So in reality our manager doesn't get a ROI on a new grad in my situation until approaching year 3. About half of the new grads hired would have moved on before that for a variety of reasons.
Hire an experienced nurse and you get results almost right away.
Want a tip. When interviewing for your first job, convince the manager that this is your dream job, not just a stepping stone to something better.
Here is another pro-tip. Your interviewer will ask you this question almost 100% of the time
Q. Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
Give this some serioius thought because this question is a potential landmine.
Good information, I think I am going to offer up in the interview that if someone gives me a chance, I will not abandon them as that was what one NM was talking about to me.
I love the ICU, but the CSU more. So, I love your kind of nursing so I might have future questions.
I have got the 5 year question, and I am so nervous about that question. I usually say that I plan to get my BSN online because most places want you to have it, and I say I want to be at a point where I am doing a good to great job at what I do. I do not like to skip around jobs, I am the overachiever of the overachievers.....I want to do the same thing until I do it to the absolute best of my ability....Maybe these are the things I need to say whether I am asked from now on or not. I tend to only answer what I am asked, and I offer up nothing extra because I am always worried I made some mistake.
What is your advice about the five year question? Is what I said okay, but I know some advise to not bring up school because it looks like your out for that tuition help thing. I just want them to know that I know I need to get my BSN.
ok, let me chime in here. not only are new grads expensive to orient, even when off orientation it takes almost a full year before that nurse is actually pulling his/her own weight in the unit. keeping that in mind, lets say that a manager hires a group of new grads. how many will have quit before or around that year before the manager ever gets a return on investment.
i completely agree. as a new grad i was hired to an icu and after 1 year transferred to er because it was my dream job. i never had any intentions of staying where i was and i knew it. funny thing is the person who hired me knew it too because i originally applied for er. i just took advantage of the opportunity to learn and am very thankful for the experience, i still work there prn.
also it does take a year before you start to feel like you are managing on your own, so it's a big commitment for the whole unit.
i also moved 2000 miles from home for the job, i knew in order to get the experience i wanted i was going to have to really put myself out there. good luck to you!
I would say that 20K is actually a very lowball number. The training cost where I am at (due to specialization) for the first year is closer to 40-60K, for a new grad and about half that for an experienced onco or ICU nurse. There are additional trainings in the second year. There is also more liability risk as well as wear and tear on experienced staff.
It is estimated that new grads take about 2-3 years to become fully independant in my dept. We verbally ask them when taking the job to obligate themselves to 3 years. We do not have them sign contract. After they work ICU/Onco with us, they can pretty much get a job anywhere in a teaching hospital, and most community hospitals.
We have a wonderful manager and one of the better ratios and pay scales in the area. Excellent benefits, and a very good environment of care.
Of new grads hired in the last 3 years, about 25, we lost 3 in the first few weeks. Didn't show up, weren't on time, missed shifts for ridiculous reasons. we lost another 3 during orientation after repeated lengthening of orientation. They just could not get it, couldn't think critically or show the independance required of our dept.
We lost another 7 to lifestyle changes. Met a new man and moved, didn't like the area, wanted a different job/dept, didn't like the hours/rotation/holiday schedule/etc. But not before they received large amts of specialized training.
Our dept actually prefers new grads that they can train from the ground up, and as it initially costs almost as much to train an experienced nurse as a new grad. But the experienced nurses hired have not left. When they get training, they have extra knowledge to contribute. And they have an established life/work record and ethic.
Virtually all of our experienced recently hired have worked as travelers on the floor. They have benn "tried" and are a known fit.
What is your advice about the five year question? Is what I said okay, but I know some advise to not bring up school because it looks like your out for that tuition help thing. I just want them to know that I know I need to get my BSN.
Thanks for the info.
Like I said, that question is a landmine. There is no right or wrong answer. First and foremost I think when the question is asked, the interviewer is looking to see if you've even given thought to where you want to be in 5 years. No manager realistically expects a nurse to be in the same position 5 years later, and many are smart enough to know if you are BS'ing them saying you will because that is what you think they want to hear.
Furthering your education is a good thing especially if you frost it with how doing so will make you a more valuble contributing member of the unit.
Saying that you want to get involved with unit things like committee's, projects etc is good too. If you have any you have done while in school this is a good time to toot your horn in this regard.
Like I said the 5 year question is tricky. Give it some thought and be true to yourself. Take the answers you think of and show how they will be postives to the unit you are applying for
Be careful not to be full of BS with answers you think the interviewer wants to hear because if he/she has any experience interviewing you will not be convincing.
The way I see it when asked the 5 year question if the person being asked hesitates to the point where the interviewer thinks the interviewee hasn't even given it thought, that would be a huge red flag to me and that app would fall to the bottom of the pile.
Hell I would even go as far as to have written out on a piece of paper where you plan to be in 5 years. If I were interviewing someone and they had done that I would be so impressed that you would be on the short list for sure.
All of the aforementioned things, such as costs, lots of nursing schools, etc. are just circumstances that make a current problem worse, but they are not the underlying, direct cause.
When the economy crashed, lots of people lost jobs. This means lots of people lose health insurance. This had a major consequence: a drop in the # of paying hospital patients. This stems from both people putting off medical care because of the out-of-pocket cost, or simply not having a means to pay since they are uninsured.
Unemployment numbers have not budged, so the problem has not gone away. It's been roughly the same now since 2008.
So, what about state/county-level non-profit (ie public) hospitals? Government spending cuts and localized reduced census due to scares over immigration laws in certain states.
And so, what we get is a strange phenomenon indeed. Healthcare is not something one imagines as having fluxuating demand, since people are always in need of it. However, since in the US it is primarily a profit-driven business, demand falls when people do not have money to spend on it. No matter what your economic or political views are, these are undeniable and logical consequences of the circumstances.
I'm sure by now you're wondering if I have any advice or even a reason for telling you this. Well, it turns out that I do! If you are able to relocate, consider relocating to a state/area with lower overall unemployment. Overall, non-specific employment directly affects demand for healthcare because of the reasons I stated above.
This is why areas like N. Dakota have recruiters actively taking new grads. There is work to be had there (new oil drilling) and therefor, people with health insurance and demand for healthcare business.
Here's a map from the bureau of labor statistics, if you don't believe me.
You may notice at once how bad places like CA are and why we see so many posts of new-grads in CA having an especially hard time.
So, in conclusion... is there a nursing shortage? Debatable. There is certainly demand for RN's, but only for experienced RN's. Is it impossible for new-grads to get work? No. I'm a new grad (may 2011) and recently got hired with the county as a psychiatric RN. It took awhile, and a lot of persistence, though.
Will there be a future shortage? I believe there will be future demand when baby-boomers retire in large numbers and the recession ends. I don't know about shortages -- that depends on growth rates of demand versus the number of new nurses.
Yeah sorry about that. I feel better knowing the real reasons now, because as a new grad I dont know and thats the whole problem.
I never consider that I lost a position to an experience nurse, never. I am the worst overachiever because I was made to be that way. I think if I dont get the job its because I made a horrible mistake, I said the wrong thing and I should have known, I didnt say something when I should have, or anything you could think to blame yourself for. Anyway, its always my fault to me. It all stems from there, I cant put it all in words. It caused me to look at the NM's.
I don't think there is a shortage right now, but our new grads are finding jobs, but employers are being very selective and I don't blame them.
The actual number for training a new grad - or more pertinent to this discussion - the actual cost of replacing a new trained RN in the first year is $53,000 on average. (Bratt, 2005). If an employer has a new RN application and a 3-5 year seasoned RN applicant on her desk, easy to see who she will pick.
Of new grads hired in the last 3 years, about 25, we lost 3 in the first few weeks. Didn't show up, weren't on time, missed shifts for ridiculous reasons. we lost another 3 during orientation after repeated lengthening of orientation. They just could not get it, couldn't think critically or show the independance required of our dept.
How long and what type of training does your department provide?
The data shows that RN grads who go through orientation with a trained preceptor plus a 1-year residency program (supplied with mentor and monthly classes focusing on advanced competencies) have a much higher rate of new grad retention. This is why I think hospitals should be much more open to student nurse residency programs. It is ridiculous how difficult it is to get clinical time in some hospitals and then the hospitals wonder why new nurse turnover is as high as 50%. The reality shock should be minimized when they are in school, not actualized when they are on the floor.
aubrn, keep at it, dear. There may be jobs to be had that are just not what you imagined. Be flexible; sometimes temporary positions can turn into something permanent, and sometimes applying for areas you never thought you would actually turns into something you love. Be unconventional; show up on nursing units and ask for the manager instead of going through HR. I'm not saying you haven't done all those things, and I don't mean to sound all motherly and advice-y. Just want to send a hug and my belief that things gotta work out for you somehow. :hug:
I havent done all those things, but I am going to do them. Thank you for the hug, I need it, lol now Im tearing up.
aubrn
28 Posts
I dont think the older generation is pushing us out either, I just want to believe its some reason that is easily fixable? Plus, I think I am just equating interview, open position, NM's within the same age range, so I want to blame the NM. I know I have come so close to some positions, I know I have but I know in the end that experience was just the smarter way to go.
I think i am going to get the phone books for all the surrounding counties by me, and go to every medical place I can find and fill out application until my car breaks down and I cant drive anymore. So, many people are becoming nurses for all the wrong reasons. I really really love doing what a nurse does. Long story, but my life didnt provide many oppurtunities for me to feel good about myself. I never felt such a rewarding (happy, i cant explain feeling) as I did reducing another person's suffering. Its like its my source of happiness, and I would not want to do anything else. I guess I just have to give my all, like I do to everything else. I will do whatever it takes.