Why are so many nurses against unions?

[Icunicenurse]

I really don't understand. I am a newish nurse that landed my "dream job" in the icu. My hospital is the biggest and best in the area and we are currently on a journey to magnet. I feel like I was lied to about how this would help nurses and we would be supported and taken care of.

In my icu we have a very high acuity. We are constantly short staffed and tripled. 1:1 for ccrt pts is advertised but never actually happens!

I have seen a patient self extubate during the holy interdisciplinary rounds due to that nurse being tripled and spread out across the unit. None of the bosses said any thing and just went on to round on the next patient.

The majority of our assistants will not help unless asked and it's like pulling teeth just to get them to help with a blood sugar check. Often they are sitting on their cellphones or just catching up on gossip. But since they have worked there a long time it is widely accepted by the staff.

We have are losing staff nurses left and right.

I have been talked down to by our surgeons and blatantly disrespected on more than one occasion for trying to help a patient but not enough to be considered abusive so that I could report it. Once, I calmly asked a doc to update the close family members of a dying patient at their request. Since a distant family had been updated, the doctor was visibly offended and proceeded to call my charge nurse and say "I got in her face" which was completely false. Luckily the charge was within ear shot and heard everything. This was swept under the rug.

During my new nurse orientation the nursing instructor preached against unions especially since we were going magnet and would have so many benefits.

I feel like a strong nurse union could solve many of our problems and help our patient care. But the majority of nurses I have talked to are completely against it. I can't understand this for the life of me.

Sadly, my dream job has turned to hell. I love my sick patients and family but sick of being overworked, tripled, never even getting a lunch break, all while being talked down to and humiliated by the Dr.s that see me as a stupid new nurse.

[Xance]

2 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

The poster left out the part about already having experience which lines up exactly with what I said about pay scales. They are determined by experience not by how smart you think you are.

True. If you can 'negotiate' a salary which was already decided by the employer already that is not negotiating. A true negotiation would have that person realize there is a range for their experience, and then bargain for a HIGHER wage than in that range. They already admitted that the hiring manager let them know about the range and they got a salary in that range. That person already had experience as well and not all new-grads have the same experience. I too am a new grad and I'm easily the top earner in my class but I also had previous experience I could leverage just like @tacticool seems to have done. I did not 'negotiate' for my salary in a sense, but I did get a higher wage due to previous relevant experience inside of the range established for my employer. Businesses are methodical, they know that they can't afford to give RN's a certain wage because they have identified what certain positions can get on average and thus know the max they could possibly give.

You could be a Super RN, received accolades from all sorts of organizations with decades of experience and you WILL NOT get above a certain range because the employer has identified how much money you can contribute based upon position per hour. You cannot get above that number as if the employer hires you into that role they are losing money simply by having you on staff, no matter what you think you can provide them. That is why any negotiating power you think you have does not exist, unless you are executive management and thus your position does not have this type of metric. For us common folk tho, that is a fact of life and no matter how skilled someone thinks they are they absolutely cannot negotiate their way beyond a certain point for that reason and others. That is a large reason why employers have a range and most likely you will not know the 'true' range and instead they will tell you a smaller range so you can 'negotiate' within that range.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

34 minutes ago, Xance said:

If you can 'negotiate' a salary which was already decided by the employer already that is not negotiating. A true negotiation would have that person realize there is a range for their experience, and then bargain for a HIGHER wage than in that range.

Obviously any hiring manager or recruiter in any business has a range that they have to work within for every position. To say that's not a real negotiation is simply not true. That's how pretty much all salary negotiations work. Not everyone is going to get the higher end of that range just because they have experience - not everyone with experience is worth more than everyone with less experience than they have. Are they dependable? A team player? Do they make the floor toxic? There's a lot of factors that go into salary negotiations aside from, "Ok, I've been here 10 years, so give me the top end of the 10 year salary range."

[Xance]

This further builds into the entire point of a union, no one would have to 'negotiate' for their salary. They are most likely already getting the best rate they could based upon their experience. Your final comment would ring true when looking at most unions.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

I absolutely agree that for mediocre employees who wouldn't be able to negotiate their way to a better salary, unions offer them the best pay rates. The whole point is, when you negotiate it is based on a lot more than just a duration of time, which we all know (I would hope) is one small aspect of being a valuable employee. In a union shop - you have X years you get X salary. Period. What's the point of putting any extra effort in?

Also, a lot of people just don't like unions, for a big can of worms that's been opened already and I'm just bored of discussing.

[Wuzzie]

4 hours ago, jinct said:

On the other hand, if your case is frivolous, you are correct in saying that you will have a difficult time. 

But what constitutes frivolous? If the manger has a paper trail of “offenses” on you even if they aren’t true it becomes a he said-she said situation. Who do you think will come out on top? The EEOC will only back you if you are a protected class. The “definition” of protected is quite narrow. The vast majority of nurses do not fall into that class, including myself.

[Wuzzie]

1 minute ago, Rionoir said:

In a union shop - you have X years you get X salary. Period. What's the point of putting any extra effort in?

That’s for your base salary. I get a raise every year based on merit. It ranges from 0.5%-3% and is at the manager’s discretion.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

If you have a bunch of signed write-ups in your folder that aren't true, then that's on you for signing a bunch of false write-ups. Your manager can't just write something on a piece of paper and shove it in your file without anyone knowing and then suddenly fire you.

Sometimes people just deserve to be fired - and they need to build a paper trail to get rid of them. ?‍♂️ Unions make that exponentially harder, and I'm sure it's no fun for either side, but that's just part of business. Don't be the person no one wants around and it shouldn't be an issue.

[guest974915]

8 hours ago, jinct said:

As stated above, if you are truly a victim of wrongful termination, and especially if your employee rights were violated, you will have no trouble finding an attorney who will enter into a contingency agreement. You will also have the full backing of the EEOC at absolutely no cost to you. On the other hand, if your case is frivolous, you are correct in saying that you will have a difficult time.

Disagree^^^ Even if you were wrongfully terminated or your civil rights were violated, securing an attorney and bringing suit in the courts is not an easy matter. Most hospital systems are a part of a large conglomerate with deep pockets and a team of legal counsel at the ready. Through legal wrangling, they, but doubtfully not you, can afford to drag out the proceedings for years. Justice does not always prevail and often, in the end, it's whoever has the most money and power.

[Xance]

30 minutes ago, morelostthanfound said:

Disagree^^^ Even if you were wrongfully terminated or your civil rights were violated, securing an attorney and bringing suit in the courts is not an easy matter. Most hospital systems are a part of a large conglomerate with deep pockets and a team of legal counsel at the ready. Through legal wrangling, they, but doubtfully not you, can afford to drag out the proceedings for years. Justice does not always prevail and often, in the end, it's whoever has the most money and power.

That is unfortunately true, and is why on the news you'll hear about cases that involve wealthy individuals or corporations, and celebrities are treated far differently than when a less wealthy individuals, or corporations are involved. Large organizations like hospitals can afford legions of attorneys and can extend those cases for years. Whereas the vast majority of their employees do not have such resources so even with a legitimate case they cannot take it to court most of the time and instead must accept whatever deal the hospital offers if they offer one at all. This is yet another value of a union; they have the resources to help you and it's in the union's best interest to do so to show strength, else they lose their image and thus membership. At the end of the day this is America, and those of us who value union protection and benefits will seek it. Those who don't want group protection and instead want to ride solo and have no help should the time arise are also free to do so.

[Wuzzie]

8 hours ago, Rionoir said:

If you have a bunch of signed write-ups in your folder that aren't true, then that's on you for signing a bunch of false write-ups. Your manager can't just write something on a piece of paper and shove it in your file without anyone knowing and then suddenly fire you.

You have zero experience in this field so not sure where you are getting your information from. You can refuse to sign a write-up or write a rebuttal but that doesn't make it go away. The write-up will stand. Also, in an "employment at will" state they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all and a warning or explanation is not required.

[jinct]

10 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:

You have zero experience in this field so not sure where you are getting your information from. You can refuse to sign a write-up or write a rebuttal but that doesn't make it go away. The write-up will stand. Also, in an "employment at will" state they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all and a warning or explanation is not required.

Do you know how many states are "employment at will" states?

[Wuzzie]

"The states of Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, and Virginia are the only states that do not currently recognize the exemption."

Every other state is an at-will state.