Why LPN??

MQ Edna · Mar 28, 2001

Hi Suzy,

In answer to your query about LPN vs 2yr vs 4 yr, I chose to get my associates degree first because as a mother and a wife, I did not have 4 years to spend getting my education before earning any money. Most of the women in my class are just like me, older with families. The bachelor students tend to be younger without families. This is just a generalization, and I know there are exceptions, so please don't anyone get offended! The other thing I would like to point out is that maybe people got offended by the way your worded your question. "Why not JUST go for two more years?" For many of us, two years is too long, much less 4 years. Two more years for me is out of the question right now, although I can go back, and will go back, after I am working. I hope this helped with your question, and maybe with some of the reasons people were so offended. I can understand why your post was taken to mean that being an LPN is unimportant or a waste of time, because I felt that way about your comments about two year degrees. People work hard for whatever education they have and want others to appreciate that. I also would like to add that I have been in the health field for several years and some of the best nurses I know are LPNs.

Laura

Proudly graduating in May with an ADRN

Brownms46 · Mar 29, 2001

I think what the problem is, that "some" RNs, do have a low opinion of LPNs, and have stated many inaccuracies, about their abilities, and their (the RNs), dislike of having to work with, and or cover them. These RNs, that feel they, are above LPN/LVNS, haven't just now appeared, but have been around a long time! I, and I'm sure many LPNs, have worked with them, and read comments from them. That is what I think, causes many LPNs, to respond harshly, when the question of RN vs LPNs comes up, time, and time again. Maybe Susy, and others, who haven't worked with LPN/LVNs, haven't heard about these problems, due to the area, and their limited experience in working with them. But,..every state, and hospital for that matter, has their own way of using ALL nurses! There are hospitals, where the Charge nurse/supervisor, is the only person, who can call the MD, and even the other RNs must report pt. problems to her, and SHE makes the decision to call the MD! I have worked with BSNs, who will down a ADN, just as bad as they do LPNs, or the MSN, who downs the BSN. The same holds true of some MDs, dealing with ANY NURSE! Looking at these situations, the impression one would get, that the more education one obtains, it would seem to make a person feel superior to anyone not on their level. But I don't believe that is true, and neither do I believe, if you were a CNA, an LPN, an ADN, or whatever before continuing your education, this keeps you from expressing views of being better than those with less education. I think it depends on what kind of person you are, BEFORE you got the education. If you were a jerk before, you will be an educated jerk afterwards! If you confident before, you will be more confident after. But some people are never confident in their education, or skills, and feel threatened by the confidence levels of others, who have less education then themselves. This, in my opinion, sparks feelings of jealousy, and indignation on the part of the one with the feelings of inferority. I see the thinking as, " how can they be so confident, and they don't have half the education I do". So they attack, and belittle the less educated person, in order to establish their feelings of superiority.

And yes, there are some who resent, those who have been able to continue in their education, and find it easy to try to dismiss the person, who has been able to obtain, what that person themselves, haven't been able to. But neither of these feelings of being inadequate, have anything to do with this profession alone, but in any area, where a person, has a need to buffer their own lack of self-esteem, by lowering someone elses. I, myself have dealt with many who feel this way, and yes, I get angry, when I hear the age old thing about RN vs LPNs. But it bothers me, when I let someone elses, low self-esteem, bring out my built up rage, at having to run into this problem over, and over again, of who is better, works harder, runs faster, or leaps higher. So I have decided to consider the source, and move on. I have decided to pity the ignorance, I run into, try to enlighten them, and if they persist, to ignore them!

There have been lots of great posts here, on this subject. I think many have been now been educated, that LPNs, can be an assest, are very skilled, and work at different levels, depending on what state, or hospital they work at. Most limitations on LPNs are the policies are the hospitals, are not the states. Most states leave it up to the administrations to decided what an LPN can or can do, as the practice act can be broad in some instances. Under different hospital policies, I done it all, including L&D, and yes I have caught a baby also! To those LPNs, who find it difficult or impossible to continue their education, and desire to work Critical Care, ER, and L&D, there are hospitals you preform in these areas! BUT,...you must have your stuff together, have excellent skills, be able to problem solve on your own, and work independently. You can't have average knowledge or skills. You need to become ACLS, (Advance Cardiac Life Support), NALS (Neonatal Advanced Life Support), PALS (Pediatric Advance Life Support), EKG, IV/Central/Art line cert., take a critical care course, or BTLS (Basic Trauma Life Support). Most hospitals have these courses available to their staff, and for a fee, will allow you to take these courses also. On my webpage, I have sites for FREE CEUs, software, EKG, and other educational information. ANYONE, who wants to visit is welcome, but it was designed to help LPNs/LVNs, as I found little information online for directed at us. http://homepages.about.com:8088/brownms46/travelnursinginformationforlpnvns/

That's my .25 cents worth..um inflation ya know..:-).

Brownie

[This message has been edited by Brownms46 (edited March 28, 2001).]

Q. · Mar 29, 2001

Hi Brownie-

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I will comment that I have noticed a trend, that it seems to me that the majority of my peers, who haven't been in the profession very long, don't have quite the hostility towards LPNs as some may think. I really think the trend is changing as new nurses come aboard.

I will explain why I posted the question that I did.

As I explained earlier, I have only worked with 2 LPNs. One of them, 2 years ago, worked on the GYN med-surg floor adjacent to our birthing center, and the other currently works on our birthing center in post-partum only. They had both, at some time, expressed the desire to work in the actual labor and delivery section of the hospital. One in particular wanted to simply move out of the patient care role altogether but was simply stuck with no where to go.

Knowing what I know as an RN, that in our labor and delivery unit we only employ RNs, I wondered why if this LPN had such a desire to work in this area that she didn't go for her RN in the first place. I've seen her run her butt off on the GYN side and I know perfectly well what she is capable of doing in her scope of practice in Wisconsin. I also know that she is paid less than me. I don't have any LPNs under me and we don't have NA in labor and delivery either, so I am not really responsible for anyone other than myself and my patients, unless I am the charge nurse that night. (We rotate charge responsibility) I felt that I was compensated fairly and felt justified in getting a bigger paycheck than her, but I saw her struggle and dissatisfaction with this. She wanted to be paid more too but she simply couldn't be. She seemed to yearn to want to apply for other coordinator positions in women's health, but couldn't, because of the RN requirement.

I never got to ask either of them if they had these desires so badly, why would they go the LPN route, because, we lost both of them. The one LPN that is still currently working post-partum won't be for very long, and I don't see her anymore, we work opposite shifts.

So that was the point to my question. I also was reading the post on "No More LPNS" and got the impression that the LPN layoffs were more widespread than just my area. The future seemed very bleak for them, and I wanted to know if there was just more to the story. I did learn a few things from some posters who weren't personally attacking me; some mentioned getting thier LPN to get a job at the hospital and be on staff, and then reap the benefits of tuition assistance from them.

One thing for sure, I see the hostility (but only from this board) the LPNs go through. But as you might notice, we all go through that. There is a common notion that RNs are somehow less skilled clinically, or there were comments made that the more capital letters you have behind your name the more removed you are from the bedside, etc etc. We all know that this is not true, that these are horrible generalizations that only apply to a select few.

Healthcare needs every team player it can get. We need to also be able to see each others point of view. If you are not an RN, you may not fully understand the issues we face, and if we are not LPNs, we don't fully understand the issues you face. Not all LPNs are cumbersome to the RN, and not RNs sit on their duff and just sign charting. And you know what, if they do, you can bet they aren't happy about it. Most RNs like the patient care and are very sad when they are removed from it.

So I hope this provides some more understanding of where I came from. I have tried numerous times to explain this before but seemed to have gotten no where. I have been personally attacked for no reason, and also for simply being only 3 years old professionally. But I guess if that's what it took for me to find the answers I was looking for, than that is the price I pay.

duckie · Mar 29, 2001

Suzy K...I am an LPN of many years and I'd just like to say I was not in the least bit offended in your post. That is why I responded with my earlier post as I did. I felt you were asking a question that you truly wanted an answer to. Can't we all just give her the benefit of the doubt and stop brow-beating her??? Isn't that what this board is for, to ask questions?

ornurse2001 · Mar 29, 2001

I have been in nursing for 20 years-first a nurse assistant, then an LPN for 12 years, now I am an RN(AAS)I became pregnant at age 13, and dropped out of school in the eighth grade to get married and have this baby.I proceeded to have 2 other children before age 19 for a total of 3 children.When I started looking at going to school after getting a GED, I was very disappointed to learn that I needed a great deal of general education classes in order to become an RN, since I missed these by not going to high school.Becoming an LPN first allowed me a stepping stone into a higher income brackett to support my children, and gave me an acedemic basis to work from.I was able to support my family rather well with an LPN salary, and held a variety of positions giving me varied experience-I worked in a hospital float pool, ER, OB, Newborn Nursery, ICU, CCU,OR, was a patient care coordinator in a long term care facility and was ACLS and PALS certified back when ACLS was a difficult feat to accomplish- all while being an LPN.I never had any difficulty obtaining positions that afforded me opportunity to use my practical skills and earn a fair living.Once locked into satisfying positions, I found it difficult to make going back to school a priority until my sons became teenagers, at which time I did become an RN, because getting there was always my long term goal.I am making more money, and there are broader job opportunities for RN's than LPN's, but would not trade the years of experiences I obtained as an LPN, and I believe that there are varied reasons why each of us choose our separate paths to what we feel is our acedemic success.There is a place for all of us in the health care arena, and every job is important.Also, there was discussion about "phasing out" LPN's back when I went to school, and it hasn't happened yet.With the current media attention to the worldwide nursing shortages in various areas-I feel it is unlikely, and even if it were to happen, I think there would be a "grandfathering" system that would maintain our currently practicing LPN's-which I feel would be appropriate.

lkushen · Mar 29, 2001

Just something I have to say. As an RN who started out the ADN route and went on for my BSN, and am starting my MSN in the fall, having worked with a variety of healthcare providers, from RNs, LPNs, nursing assistants (with whatever proper name your facilty calls them), and nurse practioners -- we are all here for one main objective - the care of the patient - in whatever setting.

If you open yourself up to it, in the nursing profession, we can all learn from each other, even across the different levels of skill, education, and years of experience. Don't make it a competition. It is really individualized - you can have a really awesome LPN, and an overseeing RN that frankly can suck! I have heard more than one RN make the statement that they learned more from an experienced LPN when they started out. Personally, I appreciate the help I can get from whatever nursing professional is there for me and my patient. I work in critical care, though mostly dominated by RNs, we do utilize some LPNs and aides as well. I'd rather have them than not!

Remember, in the nursing profession, we all need to mentor each other...for the sake of the patient. That's what we are here for, after all, isn't it?

davisll · Mar 29, 2001

Originally posted by Susy K:
I often wondered why some people choose to become an LPN verses an RN, or why go for a 2 year program and just not go for 2 more years to get your BS? Especially with the threatened LPN layoffs, the lower pay, the limited employment choices. Is it money? Is it wanting to get your ability to work sooner? Please enlighten me. Thanks.

First of all some of us LPN's chose to be LPN's because we are want to get our feet in the door while waiting to get in the RN program or because we want to try out nursing to see if that is what we choose as a career. In my case I was 26 when I went back to school and wanted to make sure that's what I wanted to do, and the RN program was full with a long waiting list, now almost 8 years later I wish I had went on and finished school, because money is not there now to go back. As for being an LPN I love it and I wish people like you would stop dragging us down, there are just as many good LPN's as RN's. As a matter of fact, most of the RN's that come out of a BSN program know little or nothing in the clinical field. As for the ADN program I know several ADN RN's who I trust more than BSN RN's they have more clinical skills. Don't judge people just because they don't have the same title as you, some of us are just as good.

Q. · Mar 29, 2001

Oh please, Davis - for the last, friggin time I DID NOT PUT DOWN LPNS AND I DID NOT ANYWHERE STATE THAT I AM BETTER FOR BEING AN RN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Stargazer, if you read this, for the all caps. My eyes bleed too

Brownms46 · Mar 29, 2001

Susy K,

I understood your post, and as I said in my original post, it was refreshing to see someone ask, and not assume. I had no problem with you asking. I was only commenting on the "possible" rational, concerning the harsh responses your post received. I don't feel, that those posts were in response you, but to the old RN vs LPN debate. I "think", many saw this as the same ole same ole. You can't understand something if you don't ask. That is the reason, I went into a little more than I really wanted to, in my original post. It was an effort to help you, AND others understand my reasoning for not becoming an RN. I understand it even more after your very detailed description of your particular setting. You observations of the LPN, who finds herself frustrated in her current setting, was very enlightening. Being an older, (not always wiser) person, I can understand why this person, may not be able or willing to go back to school. This makes me sad for her. Sometimes it takes being frustrated to make a change, and hopefully she will find the encouragement, and the strength she needs to break out of whatever is holding her back from her goals.

Susy K, I would like to say, I believe, that you have great heart, as it took that, to not walk away from this discussion. You asked an unpopluar question, and stayed around to get the answers. Even though I disagreed with the way you responded to two posters, as I don't believe they were referring to you, personally, you did respond! To me, you're A OK!

To the RNs, LPN/LVNS who joined in this discussion, I'm glad see so many become involved in responding to this question, with positive posts concerning LPN/LVNs. By posting, you may have encouraged others to expand their knowledge, and maybe start thinking, they can do much more in this profession than they thought. To those who were offended by Susy K's posts, I understood why you posted as you did. But "I" believe Susy K's post, started with curiosity on her part, but I'm sure it will end with others being more informed because of your imput. Thank you!

Brownie

Squeeta2 · Mar 29, 2001

Wow!! I read through all of the posts on this highly volatile post & can see points on both sides. For the record I am an LPN who works on a CCU-VENT Unit in NY & I can do everything an RN can do except hang blood & first time IV Med bags (Funny when the reaction almost always comes with the second bag huh?) I do NOT need an RN as a co-signer on my assessments & charting as I have my own license & I am frequently called upon to act as the charge nurse when an RN is ill. Most of the time the RNs are all consumed with doing assessments & DRs rounds. I hafta say I don't get it..when they aren't there I have to do the SAME things assessments,charting, DR rounds, lifting orders PLUS my regular duties Meds, treatments,callbells,families-we all know how time consuming that can be!! LOL, assisting the CNAs with Pt care etc.I often stay late to assist the RNs finish up there paperwork But NEVER has any of them asked if all the Tx's were done or offered to stay when they knew they weren't.Before anyone asks yes I did mention this at the last unit meeting & was rewarded by the silent tx by a few of the Rns for awhile.Many times I have had an RN leave a Pts room to tell me that if I see a CNA so & so's urinal needs to be emptied??!! Then I go in & empty it..It is this "superior"attitude that we find distasteful.However, I fully understand that they chose to go to school longer & should be compensated as such.More education = higher pay period. I myself am going back to school this May for my RN. Why? Respect & more of a voice. The $$ won't either. Susy K. is right if we do the work why not get paid for it? On the Layoff issue, as I said I'm in NY & nowhere near me have there even been the slightest hint of LPNs getting the boot, there is just to much of a shortage in Nursing.

sherrybaby · Mar 29, 2001

I would like to reply to the RN who wants to know why we go the LPN/LVN route. I was a single mother of 3 small children working for $5.00 and hour in a hospital in a dead end job. I was able to take one year off of work and go to school. What did I choose? The LPN course offered at my local community college, because it offered me the chance to double my income and only be off work for one year. I am currently working as a LVN in Texas in a clinic where we have 12 doctors/I am in the position of Clinic UR nurse. I would love to go back to get my degree, but am not able to take off work at this time. So I hope this helps you to understand. Sometimes it is just time restrictions, single parents wanting a better life for their kids in the least amount of time possible. I have worked in many different positions. My most memorable job was working at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. I was trained to administer chemo and do most of the same things the RN did. I really loved it.

theboss · Mar 29, 2001

after reading all the responses to suzy k including myself would like to say that, it wasnt her question that has recieved all the heated reponses. although it could have been worded and asked differently. it was the rude, condecending, unproffesional, uneducated,childish, and oh let me say down right rude.. ect,ect, way that she responded to the relpys that she has received, and one of the responses wasnt even directed to her it was towards c.lo so she set herself up for heated debate...i would like to appologize for not including c.lo in my 1st response and just singling out suzy k because her 1st response was uncalled for...i would like to suggest that calling your state board or any state board for that matter and educating yourself instead of just assuming everything is the same all over the world, that does seem awefully nieve..i have met and worked with awesome rns ,lpns and bad ones of both and there is no confusion to the fact that there is no prejudice there...there has been some great responses to lpns and i want those of you to know that it is appreciated and respected...thankyou for listening THE BOSS!! (SORRY BLEEDING EYES IN CANADA) couldnt help it !!!