Why the high drop out rate of nursing students?

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Jan 6, 2009

Talbrecht, you have spent a lot of energy venting your frustrations in this thread. I really feel sorry for your situation, but I also feel your energy could be applied in much more productive ways.

1. Have you considered visiting the retention person at your school? This person is trained in areas to help you focus & succeed.

2. Have you approached your instructors for one-on-one help and conferencing in their office?

3. There are also alternate programs available, such as Excelsior (not accepted in all states, including California), or LPN programs. (Some students who do not succeed in the RN route, become an LPN, then later go the LPN-to-RN route.)

Also, I want to add that accurate math skills are critical. You mentioned that you made 7 out of 10 on a math test. This could translate (in the practice world) to 3 patients out of 10 with a serious medication error. In fact, medication errors cause an estimated 100,000 deaths annually in the US. Definitely seek help with math skills.

Wishing you the best.

AOx1 · Jan 6, 2009

Education is a partnership. I sought out this profession not because I am poor and need more money (I could make a lot more working in the hospital) or because I like to torture people, but out of a genuine desire to impact nursing at a fundamental level. I take my role seriously, and expect a lot of my students. I treat them with respect and caring. I expect them to come to class prepared to learn, with an open attitude. I welcome all questions, although my goal in answering them is to show the student the thought process I use to arrive at the answer. I put around 70 hours a week into improving my classes, yet am paid around half of what I could make in a hospital setting working 40 hours per week. That said, I love my job. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would still teach.

For every class session, I put around 15+ hours of research and preparation into assuring that a positive, productive learning environment is created. My students have the opportunity to apply their knowledge in each class. I am not and never will be someone who only reads from a PowerPoint.

In school I had some terrible and some wonderful role models. I had instructors that challenged me, and some that never made any effort to teach. I had some that were nurturing, and some that appeared bitter and angry. I made up my mind to learn and succeed, whether my environment was nurturing or hostile. It was up to me, and I am glad for my choices. It only inspired me to be a nurse educator and to try to be a positive model. I do my best every day to live up to my ideals.

BUT, I can't do it alone. The statement that I am responsible for all student failure is not realistic.

I am not at fault when a student chooses to get drunk instead of study, refuses all attempts to refer to counseling, or decides that they don't want to ever clean up vomit or poop. According to your assertions, this is my fault for failing to keep my presentations interesting and failing to make them want to be nurses. We all make choices in life, and as adults, we are responsible for them.

If I am to apply this logic, then I would want to become an accountant simply because someone presents accounting in a positive light and makes their presentation interesting enough. I don't want to be an accountant. I never will. I don't care if Bill Cosby teaches all my classes and makes them really funny and enlightening. I don't have an interest in that profession, and it doesn't suit my skills. It is the same with nursing; it isn't for everyone. As another poster mentioned, we all have dreams. As a child, I wanted to be the president. I am not, in fact, the president. Is this my teacher's fault?

Certainly there are some nurse educators who have their own reasons for not wanting to see a student succeed, just as there are cosmetologists, and physicians, and accountants, and athletes who for some strange reason wish to see others fail. This does not mean that all educators don't care and wish all students would fail.

If you want to see change, one of the best means of implementing it is to volunteer for your school's committee that handles these issues. The majority of us listen to student feedback.

However, I must say that there will always be ambiguity in education, as in nursing. As of yet, I have not had a patient present who wore a sign stating what was wrong and exactly how to treat it. This led to ambiguity, and a need for decision making.

Finally, we must each look at what we are doing to contribute to and to solve the problems. Every semester I learn ways to improve, and do my best to implement them. No one else will take responsibility for you in life. No one else should want your own success as much as you do. Reach for your goals, but depend ultimately on yourself. I am much more interested in constantly learning how I can improve than in blaming someone else when I don't succeed.

talbrecht · Jan 6, 2009

Talbrecht, you have spent a lot of energy venting your frustrations in this thread. I really feel sorry for your situation, but I also feel your energy could be applied in much more productive ways.
1. Have you considered visiting the retention person at your school? This person is trained in areas to help you focus & succeed.
2. Have you approached your instructors for one-on-one help and conferencing in their office?
3. There are also alternate programs available, such as Excelsior (not accepted in all states, including California), or LPN programs. (Some students who do not succeed in the RN route, become an LPN, then later go the LPN-to-RN route.)
Also, I want to add that accurate math skills are critical. You mentioned that you made 7 out of 10 on a math test. This could translate (in the practice world) to 3 patients out of 10 with a serious medication error. In fact, medication errors cause an estimated 100,000 deaths annually in the US. Definitely seek help with math skills.
Wishing you the best.

:redbeathe

Thanks for the suggestions, yes I saw the instructor in her office who suggested students help me if I under

stand it since it was not clicking the way that she presented it. She couldnt even help another student by

answering a problem on the board right before a quiz. 1/2 way though the class she totally changed her way of

explaining the material saying maybe we should try it this new way. Claimed she was not good at math either.

I already make way more than an LPN and already have that equal status in the field. I have done everything an LPN does & more because I also have an xray license and am an excellant coder and biller. I even enjoyed being an office manager and have 7 years supervisory experiance. I was a Cardiovascular Tech in a busy So-Cal

ER first response for all cardiac patients and did that for many years.

I have many choices of jobs that I can do right now and would have no problem getting a job. I dont want it,

I quit to go to school FT to be an RN. It is in my heart and I know god wants me to be one.

I want to be an RN and I am too old to wait any longer. I understand that math skills are important, I also know that as a nurse the dose is already figured by the pharmacist and nurses use cheat sheets if they have the slightist question about a pharm error. The RN's that I did clinicals with told me they dont use math and just

learn it so I can get through.

I gave medications for many years already as a MA. I am not wasting energy or effort sharing my story I am doing it for others so they can learn from my story. I am also doing it in hope to touch instructors who are judgemental instead of full of guidance and help. You sound like a great instructor, the fact that you even took a moment to reply shows tons of kindness and I thank you. I hope you will touch many.

My current story goes I have been sent a letter of dismissal for not passing clinical pharm by 3%. I am a Jr in a BSN program and have spent 35K already in fees.

I have reapplied with a letter stating that I will get a tutor on the final I was 10 points from getting the B I needed to pass, instead I got a C. It is hard not be think that it is all in vain and that other people can block your career choice. :cry:

OC85 · Jan 6, 2009

My current story goes I have been sent a letter of dismissal for not passing clinical pharm by 3%. I am a Jr in a BSN program and have spent 35K already in fees.
I have reapplied with a letter stating that I will get a tutor on the final I was 10 points from getting the B I needed to pass, instead I got a C. It is hard not be think that it is all in vain and that other people can block your career choice.

Ok, I generally try to stay out of the educator forums, but I have to say something here:

I get the feeling there's more to your story than you're letting on. It started with the teachers being unfair, then it was like, "OK, so I may have failed a math test, too", and now you finally admit that you're failing to get the required B in pharmacology. Well, I hate to break it to you, but pharmacology is kind of important. No matter how much your little heart wants to be an RN, if you can only manage a C in pharm, then they were right not to pass you. This is not about "judgmental" people "blocking your path", this is about you failing to meet the requirements of your program. Don't try to pin this on your instructor, because she is not to blame. When I took pharmacology, it was a large forum class with very little student interaction. The instructor presented the material in a well thought out lecture, and assigned reading and worksheets. Beyond that, if I was still having problems, rather than b**** and moan, I purchased extra study material, researched the topic online, asked other students questions, etc. Finally, if I had exhausted every other resource at my disposal and I STILL had trouble I would ask the instructor for help [although it never came to this]. The point is, it's the students responsibility to make every effort to understand the material on their own before you go running to the instructor and asking her to hold your hand through the entire thing. Grow up and quit blaming other people for your own shortcomings.

Again, sorry to the educators, I just couldn't hold it in.

truern · Jan 7, 2009

My current story goes I have been sent a letter of dismissal for not passing clinical pharm by 3%. I am a Jr in a BSN program and have spent 35K already in fees.
I have reapplied with a letter stating that I will get a tutor on the final I was 10 points from getting the B I needed to pass, instead I got a C. It is hard not be think that it is all in vain and that other people can block your career choice.

I'm sorry, but in my NS program being 10 points away from a B was not a C, but a fail for that class. Also, talbrdcht, I'm not seeing you take responsibility for your own failure. "Other people" couldn't block your career choice had you not failed to meet expectations.

Not trying to come down hard on you, just trying to get you to have a change in attitude so that you CAN reach your dream.

VickyRN, MSN, DNP, RN · Jan 7, 2009

:redbeathe
I understand that math skills are important, I also know that as a nurse the dose is already figured by the pharmacist and nurses use cheat sheets if they have the slightist question about a pharm error. The RN's that I did clinicals with told me they dont use math and just learn it so I can get through.

Sorry, talbrecht, but this rationalization is so far out in left field that I just have to reply. Precise and accurate math skills are fundamental to safe practice as a nurse (RN or LPN). In my secondary employer practice environment, a small community hospital, I regularly need to mix medications and perform precise medication calculations for medication administration by IV push, primary and secondary IV administration (including vasoactive drips such as dopamine which require intricate calculations for accuracy), injection, or oral.

When I have a group of students in the large regional teaching center (rehabilitation unit), we have to make precise and accurate calculations as we mix insulins in a syringe, and calculate medication amounts for oral or subcutaneous administration. When I have a group of students on the pediatric unit, the calculations are even more precise.

Everyday without fail on these two units or when I am staffing in my secondary job, we are required to perform complicated calculations. To even consider passing this critical responsibility off on the pharmacist is not safe practice. The pharmacists or pharmacy techs can be wrong, too. It is our responsibility to check and recheck their calculations and to recheck the medication administration records. Patient safety is always priority number one!

mind_numbed · Jan 8, 2009

It is unfortunate:cry: but maybe better in the long run for them to fail out of school. I know of schools where the nursing student NCLEX pass rate is 60-70%. So, what did that school do wrong? Why did 20-30% of the class fail their boards? It could be that they just passed the students along or changed questions on the test to please students. It happens. Just say I know for fact and leave it at that. A community college is always "two" years. It is fast paced and a lot to learn. Nursing is not for the faint hearted. You do have to give up a lot to be a nursing student. :no:Also, as an instructor I have had to give up a lot too because of the need to correct all the clinical paperwork and prep work for each clinical day.

I agree, students should not be spoon fed. That is a given. However, helping someone is not spoon feeding. I am meaning more on the line of this example. I am not sure how the program is where you teach, but here is a layout of ours:

77% to pass

2 F's and your out

one day you can miss, more and you fail

I had 3 ppl that missed a passing grade by a point or less, 1 of them by one question. The tests we took were scantron. Students were not allowed to go back and check for possible errors on the tests, not even for the one question.

I had to almost be carried into class while I was sick because it was the second day of the flu. I was told I would be failed if I didn't show up.

Our class had 14 ppl fail math. Why? Because math was taught in 30 minutes on one day and then four tests over the semester.

I was not attacking all educators, just merely saying that bad ones are out there. every program has them.

I don't think that it is alright for most to fail out either as u had stated. for those with issues that I talked about previously, I don't think it is fair. People who fail out may have had some special circumstances happen.

talbrecht · Jan 8, 2009

I agree, students should not be spoon fed. That is a given. However, helping someone is not spoon feeding. I am meaning more on the line of this example. I am not sure how the program is where you teach, but here is a layout of ours:
77% to pass
2 F's and your out
one day you can miss, more and you fail
I had 3 ppl that missed a passing grade by a point or less, 1 of them by one question. The tests we took were scantron. Students were not allowed to go back and check for possible errors on the tests, not even for the one question.
I had to almost be carried into class while I was sick because it was the second day of the flu. I was told I would be failed if I didn't show up.
Our class had 14 ppl fail math. Why? Because math was taught in 30 minutes on one day and then four tests over the semester.
I was not attacking all educators, just merely saying that bad ones are out there. every program has them.
I don't think that it is alright for most to fail out either as u had stated. for those with issues that I talked about previously, I don't think it is fair. People who fail out may have had some special circumstances happen.

:up:Yeah, my instructor spent a minimal time on the math, yet it was tested every week. Literally we were shown a concept; the teacher did one problem on the board and then told us to do a two page ditto and let her know if we had questions. We asked the questions and she spent another 5 min., the next week we were tested on it.

Many complained and consulted each other to actually learn the concept. What is a students recourse? Repeat the class, didnt I pay for an instructor, what is their responsibility? What obligation does the school have to provide a teacher who can teach and not just a nurse showing you how? The teacher admitted that she was not good at the math either.

Yes, we went to her privately for more help, still she lacked the ability to explain it to the point that it was just easier to elect a student good at it to teach us. On the math final I got 30/50, yes I realize that is not good enough and yes it caused me my grade in the class. I needed approx. 40/50 to pass with the 79%. Now I have to pay for the class again and be behind a semester bc I can not progress.

These schools are not monitored for poor teaching, requirements that are not appropriate (79% was our passing)

and they can weed out whom ever they want. They are allowed to set what ever requirements they want. I think the states should set them across the US. That would be fair. How can a 78% be a D? Anywhere else is it almost a B. You say your passing is 77%. When my transcripts are reviewed and show a D an employer would not know that a D is 78% it looks really bad. I think 78% does not reflect a D. I dont understand how the same school can have two different grading scales even how different schools can? It is not right. My school weeded out alot of my class recently now we see why, many classes are cut for lack of teachers. 60 were in my program, they are only offering 40 seats in classes.

It is clear.

Something should be done :yeah:

OC85 · Jan 8, 2009

These schools are not monitored for poor teaching, requirements that are not appropriate (79% was our passing)
and they can weed out whom ever they want. They are allowed to set what ever requirements they want. I think the states should set them across the US. That would be fair. How can a 78% be a D? Anywhere else is it almost a B. You say your passing is 77%. When my transcripts are reviewed and show a D an employer would not know that a D is 78% it looks really bad. I think 78% does not reflect a D. I dont understand how the same school can have two different grading scales even how different schools can? It is not right. My school weeded out alot of my class recently now we see why, many classes are cut for lack of teachers. 60 were in my program, they are only offering 40 seats in classes.
It is clear.
Something should be done

Urgh. Are we still on this? Bottom line, it doesn't matter what your school's requirements are. All schools make their program requirements clear before the student even starts. If you have so much of a problem with needing a 78% to pass, then you should have found another program. End of story.

[And by the way, due to the nature of nursing school, I would absolutely call a 78% a 'D'. If a 76% is fail, then 78% means you passed, but with lowest score possible. Guess what? Thats what a 'D' means. You barely passed.]

ETA:

Your employer would know that a 'D' is approximately 78%. While some schools may call it a 'C', either way the minimum is almost always about 77%. This is standard for nursing schools. Are you saying that the hospitals, who hire nurses day in and day out, don't know how nursing schools work? Give me a break....]

truern · Jan 8, 2009

I agree, students should not be spoon fed. That is a given. However, helping someone is not spoon feeding. I am meaning more on the line of this example. I am not sure how the program is where you teach, but here is a layout of ours:
77% to pass
2 F's and your out
one day you can miss, more and you fail
I had 3 ppl that missed a passing grade by a point or less, 1 of them by one question. The tests we took were scantron. Students were not allowed to go back and check for possible errors on the tests, not even for the one question.
I had to almost be carried into class while I was sick because it was the second day of the flu. I was told I would be failed if I didn't show up.
Our class had 14 ppl fail math. Why? Because math was taught in 30 minutes on one day and then four tests over the semester.
I was not attacking all educators, just merely saying that bad ones are out there. every program has them.
I don't think that it is alright for most to fail out either as u had stated. for those with issues that I talked about previously, I don't think it is fair. People who fail out may have had some special circumstances happen.

Welcome to the wonderful world of NS

Guess what?? At my school 78% was necessary to pass...and that's JUST BARELY passing. Please tell me you see the problem with nursing students just barely passing?!?

We could fail ONE class and remain in the program, but out for that semester. Fail two and you're out of the program. I don't see the problem with that requirement.

We had to be present a certain percentage of lecture (and I *think* we could be out something like 1.4 days..well, face it..that's ONE day) Honestly, if you missed lecture you missed a TON of material and were guaranteed a hard time catching up.

Failing a class by a point is still failing...sorry.

Don't know about you, but I had books for med calcs (Math for Meds comes to mind) and other sources (some right her on allnurses...others online) to practice. We had the same 30 minutes of explanation and tests every semester.

In other words, your experience with NS isn't so vastly different than the majority...and the majority made it thru and passed NCLEX.

I fail to see the problem.

truern · Jan 8, 2009

I think that nursing should not be a two year course at community colleges. I think that would result in a higher passing rate.

Not sure how they presented this at your school, but at mine it was HIGHLY recommended that students have ALL pre-reqs done before entering the nursing program. I could tell a huge difference in the degree of difficulty students were having in those that could concentrate on their nursing core subjects and those that had to give time and attention to "pre-reqs".

The actually nursing curriculum in a two year community college nursing program is very doable. JMHO

talbrecht · Jan 9, 2009

Urgh. Are we still on this? Bottom line, it doesn't matter what your school's requirements are. All schools make their program requirements clear before the student even starts. If you have so much of a problem with needing a 78% to pass, then you should have found another program. End of story.
[And by the way, due to the nature of nursing school, I would absolutely call a 78% a 'D'. If a 76% is fail, then 78% means you passed, but with lowest score possible. Guess what? Thats what a 'D' means. You barely passed.]
ETA:
Your employer would know that a 'D' is approximately 78%. While some schools may call it a 'C', either way the minimum is almost always about 77%. This is standard for nursing schools. Are you saying that the hospitals, who hire nurses day in and day out, don't know how nursing schools work? Give me a break....]

:clown:

Your very mean and insensitive with your verbbage. 75% should be a C, a D should be alot lower than 78%.

At my school I got a 78% and 79 was a C ( passing.) Your wrong employers think a scale is 90-100% A

80-89 B 70-79C 60-69 D and 59 lower an F. Your right on the pre-meditation, I knew before starting that I needed a 79% to pass. I didnt know what the gamble was.

I took an 7 thousand dollar chance and lost. You even noted that a 78% means I pass, no according to the rules I failed. A- D means you failed. You need a 79% to barely pass at my school. A- B is 87% Be sensitive to what I am saying. Your half way agreeing with me. More instructors need teaching credidentials and nurturing screening. :redbeathe