What can MSNs do that BSNs can't do?

nursbee04 · Jul 25, 2004

I am sorry I didn't clarify.
I also encourge the use of a Practical Factor system of education weras the student nurse, cna or lpn is required to do certain task in front of a qualified RN and when she completes the task properly then the RN can sign off in the students book stating that the student knows how to do said task. this creates a checks and balance for the system. If a student has a certain prac. signed off, lets say Vitals, and she doesn't do them correctly in class, they can seek out the RN who signed it off to ensure she knows what she is doing. Once all PRACS are signed and all course requirments are met they can test for the next liceanse level.

You are checked off, in nursing school by qualified nursing/clinical instructors. The first thing I learned about in my ADN program was how to give a bed bath and make a bed. The last two classes I took were advanced medsurg/critical care and management. In the first clinical rotation we did basic care, bedbaths, beds, feedings, no meds. By our last rotation we were rotating through the ICU and doing our preceptorship. So you do kind of hit all the levels in nursing school already. I think it is a good idea for nursing students to get some CNA experience, but I don't think one should have to go from rung to rung just to appreciate all the steps in the ladder. If that was the case, I probably would have burned out before getting my RN :)

Q. · Jul 25, 2004

Currently there is a check and balance system (so to speak). Nursing students are checked off on basic nursing skills in school; new grads are checked off on basic to advanced skills in the hospital setting.

I have a problem with the whole check off list anyway, but that's a different thread.

ReinventingMyselfAgain, MSN, RN · Jul 26, 2004

paramedicated, i think you touched on something here. maybe the problem with nursing school is that they spend too much time on the cna stuff (ie bed baths, vital signs, etc), and not enough time on the 'real world' nusing curricula. don't get me wrong: nurses need to know how to do vitals, (it's not hard), but should the student be spending half their clinical rotation checking vitals, doing bedbaths, and making beds with "hospital corners" (do they still teach that?) :uhoh21: so it's real nice that the new grad can do that, but can they transcribe orders, troubleshoot ivs, and effectively prioritize their care for more than 2 patients? and they can sure come up with at least 3 nursing diagnoses for each patients, but tell that to the doctor when blood needs to be drawn, piggybacks need to be hung, ivs are infiltrating, the ed is calling with an admission, pain meds need to be given, and a ton of paperwork needs to be done.

no, i don't have the answer, and maybe my perception will change when i start teaching. with everything, you need to crawl before you can walk. but to say an rn should have to be an lpn or a cna is not quite the answer. :nono: btw what should an emt have to be first? ann ambulette driver :chuckle

Q. · Jul 27, 2004

paramedicated, i think you touched on something here. maybe the problem with nursing school is that they spend too much time on the cna stuff (ie bed baths, vital signs, etc), and not enough time on the 'real world' nusing curricula. don't get me wrong: nurses need to know how to do vitals, (it's not hard), but should the student be spending half their clinical rotation checking vitals, doing bedbaths, and making beds with "hospital corners" (do they still teach that?) :uhoh21: so it's real nice that the new grad can do that, but can they transcribe orders, troubleshoot ivs, and effectively prioritize their care for more than 2 patients? and they can sure come up with at least 3 nursing diagnoses for each patients, but tell that to the doctor when blood needs to be drawn, piggybacks need to be hung, ivs are infiltrating, the ed is calling with an admission, pain meds need to be given, and a ton of paperwork needs to be done.

it's been my experience that new grads come without knowing those basic skills. oddly enough, we have to spend time teaching them how to give baths, checking vitals, etc.

the transcribing orders, troubleshooting ivs, etc. that will come with experience on the floor and from that particular floor. it's my opinion that nurses do need to know nursing diagnoses, and not necessarily all the fluff with it, but basically know how to develop a plan of care. that's what nursing is, at least to me.

ReinventingMyselfAgain, MSN, RN · Jul 27, 2004

It's been my experience that new grads come without knowing those basic skills. Oddly enough, we have to spend time teaching them how to give baths, checking vitals, etc.
The transcribing orders, troubleshooting IVs, etc. That will come with experience on the floor and from that particular floor. It's my opinion that nurses do need to know nursing diagnoses, and not necessarily all the fluff with it, but basically know how to develop a plan of care. That's what nursing is, at least to me.

While I do agree to some extent, and again, not being in the educator seat, it was just an observation. School is too short, regardless of the program. So Paramedicated's ideal of nursing students coming out of school more prepared is probably impossible.

Unfortunately, at least in my experience, nursing is not that anymore. It would be nice if it were. The plan we need to develop revolves around medicine. The days of Florence Nightingale are long gone, at least where I work. :nurse:

VA_CCRC · Jul 27, 2004

They can be undercompensated for their additional education to an even greater extent.

RN4NICU, you hit the nail on the head!

zicovico · Aug 4, 2004

I have an MSN and a PhD and work for a hospital. Yes, I earn less than one would think appropriate for my education and 27 years of nursing experience. However, my job does have benefits/perks that I fully appreciate.
Today, I strolled into my office at 0930 and have spent the last hour and a half responding to the e-mail and phone messages that came in over the weekend. Some of it was work-related, one e-mail was from my sister. (I wrote her a long response.)
Now, I am checking out what's happening the world and the allnurses discussion groups because keeping up on the scuttlebut in nursing is part of my job. I'm paid to always have my finger on the pulse of the profession and this is one way I do that.
Later today, I will meet with one of my friends -- a colleague with an MSN -- to put the finishing touches on a presentation we will be making in 2 weeks on the other side of the country. Our boss is paying for the trip, of course. Oops! I almost forgot. I need to pick up the check that will pay for my meals and other incidentals on the trip.
Let's see ... what other work will I do today? Well, I have 2 other classes coming up within the next couple of weeks and I would like to make some progress on those. One is on career planning for the participants in the nursing student extern program that I established a couple of years ago and now coordinate. The other class is on educational evaluation for members of the hospital's nursing leadership team. If I don't get to them today, I can always work on them later in the week.
I will definitely try to review (and copy) the submissions for the nursing scholarship program I am initiating this year. While I wish I had more money to give away, I am grateful for the amount that I have been able to scrape together for this first year and optimistic that our fundraising efforts will be successful in the long run and that the available funds to distribute will grow over the next few years. Yes, there have been (and will continue to be) some frustrations getting this program off the ground, but that's par for the course. It's satisfying to see if finally get underway and to be able to help some of my fellow employees go to nursing school -- either for the initial nursing degree or for a higher-level degree.
There is a pile of paperwork on my desk that needs to be handled -- but I seem to have a real talent for procrastinating when it comes to that. UGH!
When will I go home today? ... When I feel like it. It really doesn't matter what time I come and go each day ... as long as I work 40 hours per week and I am generally here during the height of the work day, my boss doesn't care what the exact hours are or whether some days are longer/shorter than others.
I am allowed to work some on the weekends, nights, and/or holidays if I want to ... but I don't have to if I don't want to.
For me, the additional education has led to only a little more money ... but it has made a HUGE improvement in the quality of my life. I get nice working hours, a lot of freedom and flexibility in my work, and the opportunity to work on projects that have the potential to really help nurses and that mean a lot to me. I have a "good life" as a nurse and don't for a minute regret all the time, effort, and money I spent on graduate school. For me, it was well worth it.
llg

I really admire your potentials. I hope some days to be like you. It has been my long-term goal and aspiration to obtain MSN and PhD in Nursing. I do hope that by emulating zealous people like you, I can get to my peak. Thanks for sharing that.

llg, PhD, RN · Aug 4, 2004

I really admire your potentials. I hope some days to be like you. It has been my long-term goal and aspiration to obtain MSN and PhD in Nursing. I do hope that by emulating zealous people like you, I can get to my peak. Thanks for sharing that.

You're welcome. My life isn't perfect -- and neither is my job -- but, there are some good jobs out there if you are prepared to make a few sacrifices for your career. For me, the quality of the work life I have now was worth making a few of those sacrifices (going back to school twice, moving to a different part of the country a couple of times, etc.)

Good luck to you. I hope it all works out for you.

llg

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Aug 4, 2004

I have an MSN and a PhD... and 27 years of nursing experience...

If I were entering nursing now and already had a BS in another field, I would definitely go the direct-entry MSN route...

Hi, LLG.

Much impressed with your credentials!

I'm coming to nursing with a BS in engineering and an MBA, and a quarter century of managerial experience. Upon initially deciding to enter the healthcare biz (last year), believed your second statement above would be the best route.

But after much analysis of the particular circumstances surrounding my situation concluded the ADN was the way to go.

Perfectly clear to me there's no way to arrive at own's ideal path without laying everything out and individualizing the decision based on all the specifics involved.

Thanks for all your posts! :)

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Aug 4, 2004

I, too, have heard that "those that can, do; those that can't, teach" line and it's a bunch of *&^%$#@!...

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

Of course, you're right.

Just another generalization.

llg, PhD, RN · Aug 4, 2004

Hi, LLG.
But after much analysis of the particular circumstances surrounding my situation concluded the ADN was the way to go.
Perfectly clear to me there's no way to arrive at own's ideal path without laying everything out and individualizing the decision based on all the specifics involved.
:)

Welcome to the wonderful world of nursing, Larry G.. I have always believed that people need to investigate all of the options, choose what is best for them, and then be prepared to live with the consequences of their decisions. If the ADN route is the best one for you, go for it. I wish you all the luck in the world.

llg

Havin' A Party!, ASN, RN · Aug 5, 2004

Welcome to the wonderful world of nursing, Larry... wish you all the luck in the world...

Much appreciated!

Please promise to keep helping us here into the future.