What can MSNs do that BSNs can't do?

Q. · Jul 24, 2004

Next, never get a MSN. Why get a MSN when you need an ARNP (same amount of work) to excel and move on?

An MSN is useful depending on what you want to do. Not everyone wants to be a nurse practitioner. An MSN is simply a Masters Degree in Nursing which still keeps doors wide open. You need that to be a CNM which is an advance practice nurse also, by the way.

Now, believe about 5% of the stuff that those MSN instructors are shoving down your throat. There is an old adage that holds true, day after day; "those that can...do....those that can't...teach". The folks that can perform under pressure and make a difference are out there every day doing so. The rest have MSN's and grade papers for a living.

Unfortunately your ignorance is blaring in your post. Perhaps because you didn't believe about 95% of the stuff those MSN instructors were shoving down your throat.

BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN · Jul 24, 2004

i have been an rn since 1978. never went back to get a bsn, much less an msn. reason being:
nursing is just about the only field where we don't build on previous education. i found it insulting as a diploma rn to have to repeat my classes and pay money! i only went to diploma school for financial reasons. a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. i have gobs of knowledge. i wish there was more acknowledgement of diploma grads. with the shortage, and before the shortage this has been an issue. i am 47, and know that many nurses my age have left the field due to this diploma nurse dilemma. i also went and searched for a rn refresher course, so that i could return to the bedside. that was also a fiasco. as nurses, we need to support each other. phd nurses are wonderful....advanced education is great....but, on the battlefield, where are the soldiers?

you can't be serious... ( by the way a lot has changed since 1978, which is probably why the refresher didn't work out for you).

i can't believe how many nurses there are that are always trying to shoot each other down. we all think we know better than everyone else, don't we??...

we sit here and discourage people from going back to school...to better ourselves, our patients and future nurses. so, if those who can't do, teach, then who should be teaching? how are we supposed to learn? by the burned out, nasty preceptors in the hospital, who don't want to be bothered helping out a new nurse, much less orienting them? those who go into education do it because they want to, obviously not for the $$$. those who go back to school do it because they want to (for what it costs, you really have to want to do it). can't we all just get along, and support each other, and respect peoples educational and career goals. :confused:

yasmina · Jul 24, 2004

in 1978, there were very few bsn programs. i went to a very good diploma school. the bsn nursing program started the following year. the students who graduated the first few years from that program had devastating limitations as new grads. the diploma grads did a lot of helping. then, the bsn's would sometimes trash the diploma grads.

my point prior was that diploma nurses don't get credit for their studies. especially in the 80's, we were expected to repeat all our courses. we had to pay for the challenge exams...retake classes we already took...

in the real world, many 47 year old diploma grads have left the profession. they wanted to continue in the field, but became exasperated at having to repeat all the education, and pay for it.

no, there should definitely not be 3 entry levels for professional nurses. however, the way our educational process is set up in our field is absolutely ridiculous. i know of no other field where you don't build on your prior education.

typically, people choose the diploma route due to no money for college.

this still happens. those who enter the field that way do not deserve to be bashed. mostly, they don't have parents who can foot the bill for a 4 year program.

had it been reasonable in 1978, i would have continued my education in nursing. in 1978 it was not reasonable at all.

i think that diploma nurses should be grandfathered in...with some additional education required, but certainly not just about everything.

and, from knowing other diploma nurses who went back: it really hasn't changed that much in 2 decades.

so, good for you guys who got your bsn's. you did it the best way. and, great to get an msn.

i say a good deal of this has to do with money.

i know a really wonderful nurse who went and got her msn with a specialty in oncology. she went into it to help, she is a cancer survivor herself.

in the process of trying to get in to oncology nursing (she became a practioner), she needed fresh clinical experience. so, she went to work on the oncology floors as a staff nurse. she was treated so badly, she got discouraged and is no longer even using her advanced degree. she is back in case management at an insurance company...not what she wanted.

as nurses, we do still 'eat our young.' our profession is in a great deal of trouble. there is a devastating shortage of nursing instructors as well as nurses in general. and, it is scary as hell.

so, again, i say our educational process needs to grab hold of those diploma nurses and get them back in the field! they are slipping off into other industries. it is pathetic!

i know you diploma nurses are out there! speak up! :nurse:

BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN · Jul 24, 2004

[quote=yasmina

My point prior was that diploma nurses don't get credit for their studies. Especially in the 80's, we were expected to repeat all our courses. We had to pay for the challenge exams...retake classes we already took. In the real world, many 47 year old diploma grads have left the profession. They wanted to continue in the field, but became exasperated at having to repeat all the education, and pay for it.

Those who enter the field that way do not deserve to be bashed. Mostly, they don't have parents who can foot the bill for a 4 year program.

I think that diploma nurses should be grandfathered in...with some additional education required, but certainly not just about everything.

I'm glad to read your clarification, regarding the 'repeating of classes' (I took it to mean something else). While not a diploma grad, I'm an original ADN, then BSN, soon to be MSN. I've heard many Diploma RN's tales of school, and how it took longer than the ADN program. I agree there should be some grandfathering in.. to do at least what an ADN does to get a BSN.
Don't be so judgemental about the $$ thing. My best friend is in BSN program now, and is in debt up to her ears. Her mommy and daddy are not paying for her tuition, neither are her husbands mommy and daddy (he is back in school too). She opted for the BSN because she already has a Bachelors degree, and it would have taken her the same amount of time in an ADN program. (BTW, I know very few people who are not paying off student loans).

leslie :-D · Jul 24, 2004

you know yasmina, i do think that diploma nurses feel extremely confident in the training they received. until one has actually gone through such a program, no one can really appreciate the intensity of the learning and training received. and it certainly doesn't warrant explanation or defense. i am very pleased with what i was taught.

leslie

Q. · Jul 24, 2004

I see this thread is starting to turn into once again, people justifying their education choices.

If I recall, this thread was about what Master's prepared nurses can do, not the education received by a diploma or ADN grad.

leslie :-D · Jul 24, 2004

I see this thread is starting to turn into once again, people justifying their education choices.
If I recall, this thread was about what Master's prepared nurses can do, not the education received by a diploma or ADN grad.

thank you for the redirection. i for one, am always getting sidetracked. :rolleyes:

leslie

Paramedicated · Jul 24, 2004

ZENMAN,

Please accept my appoligies. My with is a very capable ARN I get very protective of her. All to many times in this field we have folks who play the "My degree is bigger than your degree", As far as entry level nursing is concerned I feel you should not be allowed to take a the Bachelor in RN until you have "paid your dues" For example no individual can become a Paramedic without first being a Basic EMT. No chief nurse or head nurse should be placed in that position until they have gained experience. I am of the opinion that to be an RN you must serve a year as a CNA followed By 6 Months as an LPN then be permited to finish your School, take your boards and get the "shinny badge". AM I way off on this?

Chris

Q. · Jul 25, 2004

ZENMAN,
I am of the opinion that to be an RN you must serve a year as a CNA followed By 6 Months as an LPN then be permited to finish your School, take your boards and get the "shinny badge". AM I way off on this?
Chris

Eww. That would have been a major deterrent for me.

Wouldn't that be the same as mandating that in order to get accepted to medical school, you must first be a nurse? Or to get into law school, you must first be a paralegal?

(Leslie, seems I get sidetracked too) :rolleyes: :chuckle

Paramedicated · Jul 25, 2004

Yes, it means you would have to start at and entry level title and responsability. All nurses who come out of school have the same thing in common, lack of experience. With a teared system of advancement we can ensure that a new full fledge RN is ready to do her job. You learn the Basics at CNA when you are ready you can advance to LPN to have more resposabilty and better pay. After you pay the Dues you can become a full fledge RN, ready to run her own floor or ward, in charge and armed with both knowledge and experience.

As far as it being a deterent, well those who truely love Nursing will pay thier proper due and be advanced to this level of trust and resposability. Any Half wit can study a text book and do clinicals. School does not reflect how a nurse will be once they are on thier own.

You have to admit some junior RNs are scary, at the same time you have some that come out ready to go stop all the worlds problems. These are the people you will relieve of the 3rd shift, I think it would be nice to have RNs fully capable the day they get thier diplomas.

Q. · Jul 25, 2004

I can understand your argument, but I still disagree. It's similar to the argument that a Labor and Delivery nurse must first work in med/surg for a certain period of time ("pay her dues"). I went into L&D right out of college as a new grad and learned the skills I needed to function in that specialty, as opposed to just buying my time for a year on a medical floor.

Where I work currently, there is a 2 year technical school that is our main feeder school. They train CNAs, LPNs and RNs. RNs come to our hospital from that program and lack basic nursing skills because they also have the mandate that to get into RN school, you must first go to CNA school. The RN curriculum there has a flaw in it assuming that as a CNA, you will learn how to take vitals, do baths, etc and therefore doesn't teach that in the RN curriculum. However, the CNA curriculum at any school is 4 weeks and is state-mandated. Vital signs, in particular blood pressure, are not taught and the entire CNA curriculum is geared towards LTC.

Basically, we are finding that the RNs we hire from this program are ill-prepared because of the assumptions made because they were first a CNA. This is another reason I'm against this idea.

One argument would be to make the CNA work as a CNA before going to school. Again, when I was in school, I worked for 50cents more an hour as a physician answering service on the evening shift. It was conducive to my school schedule AND I made more money than my CNA counterparts.

I've heard how mandating a bachelor's degree would be a deterrant for people entering the profession because of the time involved. I guess then I don't see how mandating someone go to CNA school and THEN LPN school is any different if not worse. In fact, don't forget the requirements for the CNA certificate is so many hours of continuing ed (for credit classes or orientation/training does not count) and the LPN licensure requirements. All while going to school for RN. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Paramedicated · Jul 25, 2004

I am sorry I didn't clarify.

A student will enter the RN program. The entire program has time built in for gaining experience as a CNA, LPN. All to often I have seen young and fresh nurses full of spirit become burnt out and overwhelmed because they were dropped into the demanding roll of RN before they had enough experience.

As an RN you are looked upon to by the CNAs and LPNs and even the Docs to be subject matter experts in your field. Does a nurse need to work on Med surge before going to L and D. NO L and D is a specialty.

I also encourge the use of a Practical Factor system of education weras the student nurse, cna or lpn is required to do certain task in front of a qualified RN and when she completes the task properly then the RN can sign off in the students book stating that the student knows how to do said task. this creates a checks and balance for the system. If a student has a certain prac. signed off, lets say Vitals, and she doesn't do them correctly in class, they can seek out the RN who signed it off to ensure she knows what she is doing. Once all PRACS are signed and all course requirments are met they can test for the next liceanse level.