What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2004

As I said, I am an ADN nurse. I still think that BSN's should make more money, though. It only makes sense.

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2004

As I said, I am an ADN nurse. I still think that BSN's should make more money, though. It only makes sense.

*puts on Hospital Administrator hat* Hey--I've got it! Let's cut the pay for ADN nurses to, say, halfway between LPN and BSN. Then everyone will be happy!

*takes off Hospital Administrator hat and stomps on it*

But, yeah, some kind of recognition seems in order,as long as it isn't at the expense of ADN and Diploma nurses. My thinking is that if any part of your title is "Nurse", you have a lot more in common with other nurses than different, and we all have something to contribute.

RN4NICU, LPN, LVN · Jul 10, 2004

*puts on Hospital Administrator hat* Hey--I've got it! Let's cut the pay for ADN nurses to, say, halfway between LPN and BSN. Then everyone will be happy!
*takes off Hospital Administrator hat and stomps on it*
But, yeah, some kind of recognition seems in order,as long as it isn't at the expense of ADN and Diploma nurses. My thinking is that if any part of your title is "Nurse", you have a lot more in common with other nurses than different, and we all have something to contribute.

How about increasing pay for BSNs --- it would be a lot easier, and a lot less ridiculous. Even though, administrators do have a flair for the ridiculous.

zenman · Jul 11, 2004

Posted by jeepgirl: in short, i am trying to say that myself, and other ADN nurses i know have as much or more of a knowledge base than a lot of BSN grads. and thats not even counting experience.

If two high school grads both go to nursing school, one to an ADN program and one to a BSN program, the BSN grad will have more of a knowledge base. You can't argue that fact.

but for some reason, BSN's are professionals and we (ADN nurses) are not?

Most professions consider the four year degree as entry level. Why should we lower our standards in the complex healthcare field?

I believe its that license that makes us professional.. if we are able to get that RN license, it doesn't matter if we're diploma or MSN.

Think of the nursing "license" as a driver's "license." The license has nothing to do with professionalism. It's a piece of paper saying you can work as a nurse.

If any one says that ADN's don't measure up to other nurses, this is what I have to say: whatever. and if anything ever happened to you and you were brought to a local ED and it was a major emergency... you'd bettter expect that a few of those nurses working to save your life are ADN nurses.

These kind of arguments have to stop as they are way off base and not logical. If brought to the ED, I want the nurse with the highest possible knowledge base...period. Perhaps you want the physician treating your major emergency to have half the education...do you...do you?

zenman · Jul 11, 2004

Posted by sproutsfriend: Credible employers recognize that BSN RNs have a better appreciation of the deeper science behind the physician ordered interventions.

I was talking with a nurse the other day and she brought up a point. She sees physicians "discussing" with PTs, RTs, social workers, dietitians, etc. how to treat a patient, but they usually just tell nurses what to do. This doesn't apply to "wet behind the ears" residents who have to ask anybody what to do! :rotfl:

zenman · Jul 11, 2004

Posted by Hellllllo Nurse: My husband has a PhD. We were students at the same time for much of our studies and saw first hand what the other had to endure. He has told me "After seeing everything you had to do, I think that getting an AAS in nursing is about as difficult as getting a Master's in engineering."
I do not know that I agree with this, but my dh believes this and stands by his statement.
All the papers I had to write for my ADN fill the same amount of storage trunk space as his Master's degree writings. Unlike many ADN programs, mine did have public and community health components.

Don't compare one field with another. Nursing education is hard, period. A Ph.D. in liberal arts will never be as difficult as even an AD in some other fields.

zenman · Jul 11, 2004

Posted by bsnecu99:Dear Fellow Nurse,
On some of your issues, I could not agree more. I do not know who thought of the ADN program...

A lot of nurses do not know. Why do nurses not know the history of nursing?

As far as a knowledge base is concerned, here is my problem with that. Firstly, the doctor knows a thousand times more than you. The patient could probably score higher on an exam about his/her disease than you, and crap, the family could instruct you for weeks. Everytime I endeavored to discuss something with the patient or family, they would say, "I know, I already know." Where did that leave me? I did have a stint as an admissions nurse where patient education was nearly THE most important part of my initial visit. It was extremely rare that I taught them something they did not know. As a student I visited with a home health nurse on a young child with rhabdo, and that little girl even drew her own lab and flushed her own port! Made me feel like an idiot. Only after I was five years out of college, was I able to flush an implanted port! That was, oh, a month ago, maybe.

Skills and knowledge base are two different critters. You can train a monkey to do some of the technical things we do...but I wouldn't want them doing it!

On our unit, it was also a problem in that the ADNs who weren't laughing about how they get paid EXACTLY what a BSN/MSN or PhD nurse makes, were roaring over how scant our skills were! If they weren't laughing, they were envious and fearful of our degree. What a paradox!

And if we had the BSN as entry level (as most professions) we would not have this split and no one would be pitted against each other. Skills come as part of on-the-job training, that's even what surgery is...OJT.

I also want to speak about what you are saying about education. I presently an unemployed. I have about 10 resumes out there. I spent the last three weeks calling and walking and knocking on doors and engaging employment agencies, the office of unemployment here, and nothing! Additionally, they are filling the local megahospital with Canadian and Filipino nurses by the dozens!

I wish you luck in your job search. I know at one time Filipino nurses were not allowed to work in the USA. I'm assuming that their education has gotten better or the USA has lowered the standards. I haven't looked into that issue lately. I do know that nurses in the Philipines want to leave the place. I've had a problem sometimes getting staff nurse positions because of my degree. People assume that something is wrong with you if you want to work as staff with higher degrees!

For your information, neither I, nor my 15 year old handicapped child, have health insurance. So I am not sure where ideal #1 came from. My father didn't even finish 8th grade, and has never been in jail. Greater social status? My husband has a PhD in biochemistry/biophysics and could not afford to buy a house until he was 57 years old!

Remember that there are always people at either ends of the Bell curve. More educated people tend to have better health. An educated white collar criminal will get away with more than some of the really dumb criminals we have lately! It took a smart criminal to cause the collapse of Enron, for example.

People with more education can hang on longer. I even saw a study once where they found military prisoners of war who had more education were able to better survive. Maybe we can apply that one to nursing!! :chuckle

RN4NICU, LPN, LVN · Jul 11, 2004

I was talking with a nurse the other day and she brought up a point. She sees physicians "discussing" with PTs, RTs, social workers, dietitians, etc. how to treat a patient, but they usually just tell nurses what to do. This doesn't apply to "wet behind the ears" residents who have to ask anybody what to do! :rotfl:

Sad thing is, it's been this way for so long that if the entry level to professional nursing was changed to the BSN tomorrow, I don't think this would change.

grnbug2000 · Jul 11, 2004

I am a newis BSN grad-IMHO if you are looking to go ino mgmt get your BSN right away If you think that you will be happy as a floor nurse go for your ADN. At my current hospital there is no difference in pay between ADN and BSN prepared nurses, but in the city where I went to school there was a differential for educational level. I decided early on that I wanted management and more admin. oppertunities so the BSN was a necessity for my grad school admissions (which I start in a few weeks!!) Always remember to value your education it is something that can never be taken away from you!(even if you go broke getting that knowledge!!) Good luck with your HESI and NCLEX!!

rollingstone · Jul 11, 2004

Who cares who's laughing at who? Use your imagination and you'll find you can do whatever you set your mind to.

RN4NICU, LPN, LVN · Jul 11, 2004

I am a newis BSN grad-IMHO if you are looking to go ino mgmt get your BSN right away If you think that you will be happy as a floor nurse go for your ADN. At my current hospital there is no difference in pay between ADN and BSN prepared nurses, but in the city where I went to school there was a differential for educational level. I decided early on that I wanted management and more admin. oppertunities so the BSN was a necessity for my grad school admissions (which I start in a few weeks!!) Always remember to value your education it is something that can never be taken away from you!(even if you go broke getting that knowledge!!) Good luck with your HESI and NCLEX!!

And it may come in very handy when your back decides its had enough.

bsnecu99 · Jul 11, 2004

If two high school grads both go to nursing school, one to an ADN program and one to a BSN program, the BSN grad will have more of a knowledge base. You can't argue that fact.
Most professions consider the four year degree as entry level. Why should we lower our standards in the complex healthcare field?
Think of the nursing "license" as a driver's "license." The license has nothing to do with professionalism. It's a piece of paper saying you can work as a nurse.
These kind of arguments have to stop as they are way off base and not logical. If brought to the ED, I want the nurse with the highest possible knowledge base...period. Perhaps you want the physician treating your major emergency to have half the education...do you...do you?

Well, I believe there will come a time when EVERY nurse will be required to have a PhD to provide even minimal incontinent care. That is as it should be? It would end the fighting over whether an ADN, RN, BSN or PhD is more prestigious and who has the MOST knowlege, 'cause that is what it is all about! My son was treated by a doctor at DUKE and I started out being utterly impressed until this doc couldn't even put in a few stitches in my kid's chin! When I first started my nursing education, I saw a Canadian nurse doing something that I was thought was incorrect. When I asked her why she was doing it that why she replied, "if you have sound rationale for what your are doing, then it's correct." So, therefore, why not require every nurse to have a PhD? I don't know how Florence Nightengale ever performed her duties without one! Or Clara Barton, or others. The name for this philosophy is called "degree inflation." You can read up on this phenomenon in any good college level sociology text. Now even secretaries are required to have a minimal four year degree. Once everyone has a PhD, then what? Will universities put an entirely new higher degree in place like a FaPS? Which means forever a professional student? If your state board of nursing or your local hospital megachain has a list of nursing practice levels, please read them. Yes, level thee where you are pulling chest tubes and the like does require advance practice. However, if we are ALL advance practice, who will do the bedside nursing? And are hospitals, clinics, doctor's offices, and the like prepared to pay for all PhD level nurses? Thanks for the challenging forum.