Weeding out of nursing students

[Tweety]

Do nursing instructors deliberately try to weed out students, by doing things like testing on material they haven't gone over yet, deliberately making it hard, picking on students?

My opinion was the "weeding out of students" was a myth.

The weeding out process seems to occur naturally, and the reason so many people don't make it through the program that started out, is that it's a tough, demanding, time consuming program, and whose eyes are on graduating top notch nurses who can pass NCLEX.

I do know teacher eyeball students they don't think are good clinicians and many of these cry "the teacher doesn't like me, and is out to get me". Or eyeball students that need a kick in the butt, or need a confidence boost and they feel picked on as well.

I don't think insturctors play games and try to weed students out.

I know there are bad insturctors and bad schools.

[SuburbanGypsy]

Programs are specifically designed to make people crack. It used to be called hazing. They have moved away from this practice, but the essence of it remains in some schools.

They want to lean on you in an effort to weed out the ones who can handle high pressure situations, and the ones who can't.

Sometimes, it's from clinical instructors or the institution as a whole and means deliberately putting a target on someones head, and making it absolutely impossible for them. Especially if that person is in the opinion of the instructors/faculty, a future liability in some way shape or form.

Sometimes you just get clinical instructors with issues that have an agenda to thin the herd because they like having that power.

Perfect example would be in one clinical rotation i did, where the female instructor was obviously biased against men.

I guess she didn't like the idea of male nurses.

When it came to the guys, she came down so hard on them about absolutely everything. Made them do twice the work, talked down to, ridiculed, and belittled them, making scenes on the unit floor, in front of dozens of people, despite them knowing what they were doing. She made their lives a living hell.

But when it came to the girls, it was all warm and fuzzy conversations, talking about the latest sales at Victoria's Secret, who their favorite contestant on the biggest loser was, or what new makeup foundation they were trying out, despite the girls having some of the exact same questions as the guys.

Same exact thing but opposite gender happened in another clinical rotation, where a male instructor terrorized the females and basically made all the girls cry because they thought they were going to fail, while kicking back, talking about the fantasy football draft with the guys, and not leaning on them in any way shape or form.

TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

In these situations, it's basically the word of the student against the word of the instructor, when the instructor writes them up and they have to basically defend themselves for doing nothing wrong.

Words cannot express how sorry i am for anyone who gets caught up in a situation where an instructor has a grudge against a student, where extra pressure is applied to that student as a result. Legal recourse is very difficult.

But overall. All wild west gun slinging rogue clinical instructors aside, I am of the opinion that good school programs want only the most competent candidates to graduate.

It's better for the school and the graduates overall if they do this.

Higher % of students pass their NCLEX the first time (school statistics being so damn important), less grad nurse medication errors that would kill people and reflect poorly on their program.

Better statistics for them being so they can expand their program, i.e. get more grant money for cutting edge new types of interdisciplinary work groups/programs, and make more money for the school as a result of higher enrollment because they are soooooo good.

[RachRN66]

I read through this entire thread, 22 pages. I see some people whining, and some people here with some genuine concerns. I want to say a couple of things. To the nursing student that c/o failing a test because the teacher put things on there that they told you were not going to be on there....I feel bad for you, but think of this... Pretend you are now a licensed nurse. You work, say in Ortho, and because all the Oncology beds are full they stash an Oncology patient onto your ortho floor. Not fair? I know, so sad... but somebody has to be their nurse. Yes, it takes more time because you are "out of your element" and you might have to ask for some help, or look up some meds you are not familiar with, but this stuff happens. I am an OLD 20+ years BSN nurse. I work in home health. I don't get to pick and choose my patients based on if I know how to take care of them, I have to learn about their disease processes, teach medications that I might have to look up, and help them become as independent as possible in taking care of themselves. That is what nursing is all about. Just a few months ago I got a patient at home with an LVAD. I was more scared than he was. When I went to nursing school there were no such means of keeping someone alive, and if there were means to do this..it was in an ICU ..Not in home health. I did a lot of research, I did a lot of on the spot learning, and I got him and his wife comfortable enough to manage at home without the constant assistance of a nurse. I could have been whiny and say, "I don't think this is fair that this patient took up so much of my time"...etc, but it's part of being a nurse.

YES nursing schools weed out people that are not fit for the job, who do not possess critical thinking skills, or are dangerous to themselves and others. Yes sometimes it happens unfairly, people EVEN INSTRUCTORS have preconceived notions about people (students) and sometimes it is not fair. Life is not fair. I have patients that don't like white people, and therefore make it more difficult for me to do my job. That's OK... I live and work in a very culturally diverse world. I treat them fairly, and I do the best job I can do to be their nurse. You have to adapt as a nurse and survive. I agree it's not fair that some instructors are on a power trip, but MAYBE, just MAYBE some people don't need to be a nurse.

I used to take 4th year BSN students out with me on home visits. Most of the time I enjoyed teaching them and precepting them. These are students that are getting ready to graduate in a few months and are prepping to sit for the NCLEX. I had many students filter through with me, and they did a great job, even making huge teaching plans that were impressive to me for some patients. However, I once had a whiny student, who showed up late and made the day start off wrong anyway. On the way to the first patient house we talked about the patient, what was wrong with her, the meds she was on and what we had to do for her at that visit. We had to give morning insulin. I observed her draw up the correct med, administer the med correctly, and then the patient asked me a question as the student was walking away. The student proceeded to the patient counter and tried to recap the needle and stuck herself. That is BASIC nursing, stuff you pick up in the first semester of nursing. So I spent the rest of my day filling out forms, taking her to employee health, and hearing her whine because it happened. SHE KNEW BETTER... At 3PM, I'm finally done with the incident, the student goes home and I now have 6 more patients to go see and get home after 10pm at night. The student cried when they drew her blood, she whined all day about how much her finger hurt, I sat patiently with her through the whole process. I had to go make another visit on my patient to draw blood for HIV and HEP B etc, and drive that blood to the lab. I was furious on the inside for such an incident happening, but I maintained my cool. I then had a conference with her nursing instructor the next day, and I asked the instructor if she felt this student would be competent to practice nursing in the real world. She was a safety hazzard to say the least. I have no control if students pass or fail. Sometimes they do stuff to fail themselves, and I do not know if that student made it through nursing school. I know that was the last day I ever took a student out with me.

I myself was an average nursing student. I studied hard, and I did a lot of research on my patients/care planning, looking up meds and procedures the night before clinicals etc. I, like every other student would sometimes get blindsided because the doctor would start the patient on a new med/new procedure etc and I didn't know about it till I got on the floor that next day. I learned I had to be flexable and keep on trying. One day in my junior year of school an istructor pulled me to the side and said, "I don't think you will ever make it as a nurse. I think you should drop out of school right now and get your cna license and make that your career." When I asked her why she felt that way, she didn't have a good answer. I told her "Thank you for the input, and watch me soar..." I went on to tell her that her doubts had just inspired me to be the best nurse I could be and someday she would eat those words. I then failed the NCLEX on my first try after graduation, and I felt like she must be right. But the hospital I was working in at the time told me I could keep my "new grad pay" until I could take the NCLEX again in 6 months. They told me that my preceptor had faith in me, and that was all I needed to hear. So I continued to study, learn and fight harder. Back then, it was a 2 day test and you colored little dots on a piece of paper for your answers. There were no computers. We made "med cards" on index cards for all the drugs we gave and had to learn about, there was no smart phone to quickly look up the meds.

All I'm saying is YES some people NEED to be weeded out, they are not equipped to handle being a nurse. Nurses, unlike many other professions deal with peoples lives. Life and death, not just "oh I'm sorry I put your groceries in a paper bag and you wanted plastic" but LIFE AND DEATH. It is seriouis stuff and you have to be prepared for anything to happen, and have enough critical thinking skills to handle it approriately. Sure, in my careeer there are times I found myself crying in the bathroom after a horrible thing had happened to my patient...but I never once cried because I did the wrong thing. I make mistakes, nobody is perfect, but learn I from my mistakes, own them and go on. I've worked with a lot of different nurses in my lifetime. Some I would love to have as my nurse some day, and some I wouldn't want them to care for my animals. Nurses are a strange breed. We have a lot of responsibility, and we have very little time to react. Some people are just not cut out to be nurses and they should be weeded out! If you KNOW you want to be a nurse and are getting treated unfairly, don't whine about it...suck it up and take it as a learning experience. Life is not fair..and if you think that it should be, then maybe you shouldn't be a nurse.

[mrmedical, ASN, BSN]

Just from my experiences, in retrospect I don't think the faculty as a whole is "out to get you" in the sense that many of my peer's felt (always complaining about stuff being unfair, ect...). I was generally the guy who grumbled a bit but just got every thing done for better or worse.

I do think that there are some instructors have are having personal issues at home or maybe they've just been sitting on a tenure and don't give a crap anymore and just do whatever regardless of student outcomes. I've had only 1, and she had personal issues to she took a leave to go fix her self up.

Furthermore, when addressing instructor inadequacy; the truth is most of these people are nurses and don't have formal education as a professor (save for those who went the educational route). I've had countless NPs/Midwives/DNPs that may be great in the clinic or skills lab but couldn't teach a subject for their lives. The simply are not equipped with the base of knowledge to be a professor; they are nurses.

I also think that attrition is a love-hate deal. None of us wanted to be on the failing end of the stick, yet their were some in year 1 that obviously weren't cut out for the job: they simply couldn't comprehend simple and basic concepts. My girlfriend was one of them, so I know first hand. And as sad as it is, the course work is rigorous to the point where only the cream of the crop should survive to move on. It's scary to say, because you don't want to subconsciousness jnyx yourself and be "that guy" yet at the same time you're torn because you see so many incompetent classmates who despite their passion and vigor for the profession, simply do not have the capacity to either understand or preform well; and that's dangerous for patients.

[NCRNMDM, ASN, RN]

I think weeding out occurs naturally, but I also think the instructors play a pretty major role in the process. Our instructors make their tests hard, and it isn't unusual to find material that you haven't gone over (and material that wasn't covered on the study guide, power points or lectures) on the test. What makes it even worse is that we only get grades for our unit exams and finals. All the other material we turn in is basically meaningless, and it just receives a pass/fail grade and gets tossed in the trash or handed back to us. In any given semester we have between three and five grades, and that's it. That means that if you fail one exam, you basically have to make in the high 90s on every other exam in order to remain in the program.

[KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN]

Before applying, potential students can contact the BON of the state where their prospective school(s) is. BONs have attrition rates and first-attempt NCLEX passing rates for each accredited school in their state, this info is (well, it is supposed to be, and I cannot tell for all 50 states ) public and BON has to provide it upon request.

If either number is equal or less than 90%, this school should be out of the list. Same goes for schools and programs with crazy requirements like schoolwork 8h/day M-F without breaks plus required "at least 20 hours/week employment as CNA in an approved facility", not more than 3 days missed/semester for whatever reason and months-long homebaked courses in subjects which can be taught within a week, like medcalc.

[laurenclem]

I am in my final semester of nursing school and am having a rough time. Our instructor is still intent on weeding.....and I have to ask is it the students or is it the instructor when half the class fails a test on a regular basis. At this point I am terrified... I have asked for help. But, everyone else that has asked for help has been told that they cannot be told anything she won't tell another student. I just want some insight into how to read into the test questions. When I do NCLEX questions and do well on these, I am having a hard time understanding why I am having an issue with the tests. HELP!!! And, we have been told it is her job to weed... I thought instructors were there to help you not intimidate the hell out of you and not answer a single question.

[I ❤ Nursing]

I am in my final semester of nursing school and am having a rough time. Our instructor is still intent on weeding.....and I have to ask is it the students or is it the instructor when half the class fails a test on a regular basis. At this point I am terrified... I have asked for help. But, everyone else that has asked for help has been told that they cannot be told anything she won't tell another student. I just want some insight into how to read into the test questions. When I do NCLEX questions and do well on these, I am having a hard time understanding why I am having an issue with the tests. HELP!!! And, we have been told it is her job to weed... I thought instructors were there to help you not intimidate the hell out of you and not answer a single question.[/QUO

In an ideal world, that is how it is supposed to be but trutfully it isn't. Talk about sadistic... let me say this... I just found out from an exam that I had currently that an instructor changed one of the questions because everyone and their mother got the answer wrong. So, everyone who answered that question correctly (before the changes) got it marked wrong. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts". Now, try and argue with that. That question, cost me to fail my test. And, for that I am supposed to suck it up and shut up and move on, because that is how it is. I'm not ******** or complaining about it. Its just sad.

[jgrossberg]

I can only say that, on the unit, when there is difficulty amongst staff members or difficulty involving physician conduct, or difficulty in specific patient care situations, there is always the "chain of command" option. If your nursing school is not offering the support you need (notwithstanding all the Jean Watson nursing theory, seldom applied to nursing training itself), I would then go to the Dean of the school and bring my concerns there. Bear in mind you may not get the response you want there, either, as many schools maintain their philosophies as a reflection of their leadership. Whatever happens, may you find peace. In retrospect, I think being a plumber would be an honest and financially practical alternative. Lots of job security.

[SuburbanGypsy]

In an ideal world, that is how it is supposed to be but trutfully it isn't. Talk about sadistic... let me say this... I just found out from an exam that I had currently that an instructor changed one of the questions because everyone and their mother got the answer wrong. So, everyone who answered that question correctly (before the changes) got it marked wrong. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts". Now, try and argue with that. That question, cost me to fail my test. And, for that I am supposed to suck it up and shut up and move on, because that is how it is. I'm not ******* or complaining about it. Its just sad.

Stuff like this always drove me up the wall.

I did nothing with my life but study. I would get the question right, but because a lot of other students didn't study hard enough and got the question wrong, they would drop the question.

I had several arguments with professors about why i should be penalized for getting something right, and having my grade % LOWERED as a result of the changes, vs someone who got it wrong, being REWARDED for being stupid, and having their grade % increased.

My entire nursing education, not once did i EVER benefit from a question being withdrawn.

Not once.

I remember one teacher saying, that in the grand scheme of things, that it was such a small % that it wouldn't matter.

Tell that to the some person who needed that % to not get thrown out of the program because they didn't make the cut.

[gummi bear]

The "weeding out process" has its advantages and disadvantages. It can be a good thing because it weeds out the students who don't put forth the time and effort into learning the material out of sheer laziness. I'm finishing the last of my prereqs, and I'm tired of the moaners and groaners complaining about the teachers and bickering about the students that are actually passing the classes. On the other hand, it sucks for the people who have things happen to them that interfere with school, or for people who can't put enough time into school because they have to work and/or they have a family to support, or whatever their situation may be. Whatever the case may be, weeding out process has been going on in nursing schools for years.

[windsurfer8, BSN, RN]

the weak use excuses for not graduating. I got my BSN in '07 and there were people saying things like that. However they all ended up quitting anyway. Easier to blame the instructors than themselves for giving up. Being smart is about 10% of it. HARD WORK is 90% of it. When you do poorly on a test you need to suck it up, dry off the tears and STUDY HARDER.