Weeding out of nursing students

[Tweety]

Do nursing instructors deliberately try to weed out students, by doing things like testing on material they haven't gone over yet, deliberately making it hard, picking on students?

My opinion was the "weeding out of students" was a myth.

The weeding out process seems to occur naturally, and the reason so many people don't make it through the program that started out, is that it's a tough, demanding, time consuming program, and whose eyes are on graduating top notch nurses who can pass NCLEX.

I do know teacher eyeball students they don't think are good clinicians and many of these cry "the teacher doesn't like me, and is out to get me". Or eyeball students that need a kick in the butt, or need a confidence boost and they feel picked on as well.

I don't think insturctors play games and try to weed students out.

I know there are bad insturctors and bad schools.

[princessmogan]

Well said! I'm sorry you had to leave your ADN program, but it sounds like you found your niche in the BSN program - way to go!

I completely agree with the whole weeding out thing. My story: I started out at our local tach school in the ADN program after leaving a four year college majoring in Journalism. I had well over 90 credit hours and enough sense to how college works, how to study and a vast knowledge in biology. Because the ADN program at the tech school was competitive, we started out with 72 students in a 30 student class room. I think that should have been the give away. I knew how to test very well, and I performed wonderfully in clinicals, but I got so tired with the instuctors claiming I wasn't going to pass if I didn't spend more time doing this or that. My grades were undeniably perfect though. After my Fundamentals and Nutrition I got out. I went to a four year school to just get my BSN because I wanted to be CNM anyway. After moving I realized that ADN programs are more competitive than BSN programs in that the space availablity is crazy in demand. I learned more in my BSN than in my ADN classes, because we concentrated on the material not on whether or not the teachers could talk us out of learning it. And that is what it seemed like happening at the tech school... the instuctoirs almost tried to talk you into quitting. That sure as hell doesn't make a nurse a nurse. I 'd rather have a competent nursing studnet see me in a setting rather than

one who kisses butt just to stay in and not get weeded out. It just seems as if the ADN programs around here are after graduated students who aren't prepared skill wise, but are prepared testing wise. Oh and yes, there is a difference between knwing and doing.

[princessmogan]

I really wish our school had required us to complete a CNA course before ever thinking of applying to nursing school. We spent our entire first term making beds, feeding one another, assisting w/ambulation, and other nonsense. Was it helpful? Yes. Was it necessary? No. We could have taken that 11 week span to learn PN anf RN tasks, knowledge, etc. They keep threatening the new classes coming in to have their CNA, but never make it a requirement.

There has to be some weeding out, of one variety or another, to make sure that quality nurses are the ones who make it through school. I have seen some people that got weeded out who I would let do a single thing to my worst enemy. To me this is a good thing. I see the other side though where instructors relentlessly go after people who they don't like, even if that person is a quality student.

In my program, the pre-reqs are the weeding ground. We have to be certified CNAs to even apply to the program. Now, in my class of about 35 (CNA Class), we had about 17 finish. I'm sorry, but those people who didn't finish should in no way be in nursing school. They were either not ready from a maturity aspect or were just not cut out to be a nurse or CNA. Because being a CNA is a pre-req, those classes are a feeder for the program and 95% of the people are going on the nursing school. For instance, there was one girl who had been accepted to the program, contingent on her obtaining her CNA. Knowing this, she partied, came to class hung-over, slept through class and ultimately failed, opening a spot for someone with the drive and desire to become a nurse. Another instance was out A&P instructor. Once again, his classes were feeders for the nursing program. He was a monster in A&P 1 and weeded many a person out. Sure he eased up a little for 2, but he was still a hard difficult teacher that you had to study to get through.

This kind of weeding out is useful, like someone above noted, it's like natural selection, or in the words of many football coaches, "OTSS!" (only the strong survive). Luckily in my nursing classes the instructors are there to facilitate our learning, not wash people out. Now it is a new program so they want to show a good face, but still they're not actively weeding people out, as it has really been done for them before we even make it to nursing classes. That being said, I still worry about it. I know already that I do not like my 2nd year instructor and that our learning/teaching styles, politics and religion (which she brings to the classroom), are at odds. So I will keep my head down, not draw attention to myself, bite my tongue and finish out my schooling.

Hoping this made sense...

Cheers,

Tom

[princessmogan]

I agree, there are definitely some people who have no place in nursing school. However, I beg to differ on the subject of tutoring. I had a tutor in my first term of A&P. She was a nursing student who had been straight A's throughout pre-req's and so far in nursing school and she taught the material in such a different aspect. It was great to have that second insight. Everyone learns differently. For me, it was extremely helpful. I can see how butt kissing and cheating may ultimately upset another (believe me - been there, done that): our class was full of kiss-ups and cheaters!

The nursing program at the college is harder than any other in the area. It also has the highest rate of NCLEX passers (at least per capita). It is proud of that, and I am sure their pre-reqs weed on purpose. The 3 hardest pre-reqs are Chem, AP, and Microbiology. I used to be agitated that we had so many more than other schools, but I am glad now. The reason why is we have a lady who is getting 2 years of education, an appartment, and who knows what else paid for by unemployment and has no place being in the program. She has taken AP twice and failed. She only passed Microbiology because she begged another student to tutor her. He basically took the class for her. She tried to beg me and I simply don't have the time (full-time job, married, 2 kids). I am so glad I didn't help her. I don't know how she passed Chem, must have begged some poor sap there too. She's not going to make it, and although cruel I will be glad. Who wants an incompetent nurse who basically cheated their way through the program?

[Old Broad]

Hey, Tom,

Yeah, we had a lot of weeding out beforehand, too. Because there are so many applicants and this is a tiny college in a very rural area, there is a point system to get accepted. You get so many points if you take pre-req classes at this college, you get so many points extra if you got an A, or a lower point if you got a B in A&P, all sorts of stuff like that. We even had to have our CNA and CPR certificates. And, you must have at least a 77% to pass the RN course, with a 96% in clinical calculations.

Most of our teachers are pretty good, but there are a couple of bad ones. The one accused me of threatening her - which I didn't do. When she was asked when this supposed threat happened, she named a time in class when there were students all around who witnessed that I hadn't said anything - SHE did!

That was a huge problem with me - but when they flunked students based solely on lack of places for them in the local medical facilities - then that was unacceptable. That's not weeding, that's deceit and fraud. No one was told that only 32 students would be able to make it into the 3rd semester. If I would have known, I would have driven the extra 20 miles to another school!

That's what I have a problem with -the dishonesty and my time and money that has been wasted at this school instead of going to a different one. By my moniker you can tell I'm no Spring Chicken. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, either. Before beginning the RN classes, I was on the National Dean's List, so you know that I'm no slouch. I saw students who were GREAT in clinical get flunked,while the doctor's daughter (who was HORRIBLE in clinicals - you should have seen what the RNs at clinicals had to say about her!) was allowed to pass because she was given extra time on her finals! Not good!

That's what I mean about the problems with weeding out. I have no problems with a fair "weeding out" - but not because of lack of room or favoritism.

Old Broad

Old Broad

[LouisianaNurse2006]

Do they deliberately make those courses hard to weed out students?

Or is the nature of the material and all that one has to learn so difficult that many people don't make it?

Personally I don't think it is the "nature of the material" or "difficulty of the courses" at all. In fact, there is no single item that you have to study and learn concerning nursing that is hard........ the problem comes in with the AMOUNT of information. To teach us everything we need to know instructors have to pile huge loads of information on us. Before we have time to understand/integrate one set of ideas we are bombarded with more. So, to me, the most important one ingredient to success in nursing school is TIME!

We are all intelligent caring human beings, we can all comprehend and learn, some of us just need more time to study to make good grades. I spend as much time reading/studying/preparing as possible, taking off some days to rest my brain and re-group.

That is why I feel sorry for the students that have jobs and families, that is less time they can devote to reading and studying. However, I have no sympathy for the slackers, the ones that choose to party all weekend and miss class for no good reason.

If you want to succeed (I mean really succeed, not just slide through) in nursing classes, give up as much extracurricular activities as possible. There will be time for fun later, once you reach your goal.

Good Luck!

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Entry into my ASN program was very competitive: hundreds of applicants for 80 seats. But once you're in, you're only competing with yourself--there is no "curve", so everyone can make an A or everyone can fail. Did have a couple of tests that were reviewed and revised because too many did poorly.

Test taking was a big part of the emphasis in our course. With only two years to get ready for NCLEX, it had to be. The test questions were usually in NCLEX format, and many of us found it a huge adjustment after years of more traditional testing. But we have a high pass rate on NCLEX, and the truth is, no matter how good a nurse you might be, you won't be any kind of nurse if you don't pass NCLEX.

We lost a few students from our starting class, but picked up a few who were repeating from the previous year. The ones who dropped out or failed generally had issues outside of school that made it impossible to continue--I don't think anybody got "weeded out." All that was done before we ever started, and those who were admitted were expected to succeed.

[lil_judt]

[if the whole class failed the test...there is something terribly wrong...

and I hope the Dean of Nursing will do something about a prof./instructor like this....then....I got outr of RN school and went to Ob and the doc hated me...so I transferred to Med/surg then , offered a job at the Public Health..was hired and lo and behold the person whjo hired me left!!!

then, I had to leave...

theis begin my time of job here to job there.

I still have had no job for more than a year and a half....

now, I am at a retail store where I make minimum butn the stress is lots less and no one asks me if my certs are upto date...

I would love to go back into nursing... but I would also like someone to support and like what and how I decided at doing things....

Anyone out there know where a good refresher class is???

I am ACLS and BLS cert...

etc.

QUOTE=BETSRN]It saddens me to think that there are instructors out there who do this. However, nursing is a demanding profession and I do think that there is probably natural weeding out process which occurs anyway. It is better to get out before you graduate if you know nursing isn't for you. Why waste your time and energies?

[memily2000]

It saddens me to think that there are instructors out there who do this. However, nursing is a demanding profession and I do think that there is probably natural weeding out process which occurs anyway. It is better to get out before you graduate if you know nursing isn't for you. Why waste your time and energies?

I know a smart guy who lived in NY, had a good education and a good job, but for some reason decided that nursing school would be fun, easy, and something he could always fall back on if need be.

He entered the program, and found out it was a lot harder than he expected. He got tutoring and was squeaking by, but finally decided he really didn't enjoy it and quit. He said he didn't want to one day end up REALLY messing up, and then have to tell the family, "Hey sorry your family member is dead, but nursing is not really my thing".

We all now how much guts, hard work, and determination it takes to finish the program, but I think it also takes a lot of guts and honesty with yourself to admit, you're not interested or good at something like that.

[Beth2657]

Nursing school is a joke!

I am the end of my first semester of nursing and I haven't decided whether I am going to continue of not.

I got lucky in my first semester, got a new teacher, who actually teaches;she actually reviewed before the tests. The Dean of Nursing came down on her and told her not to do reviews before tests. Why? Because the other teachers in the school were not teaching and their students were flunking, just what the school wanted. When the information learned in nursing is so important to the lives of our patients, why is it that the schools don't want to teach the material to you, it makes no sense. I can sit at home and read the nursing texts without paying tuition to a school that has teachers who don't teach; and I can do it at a pace that is comfortable for me. I think another reason is that once some of these hags get nursing teaching jobs, they want to feel superior, like they have something that nobody else can attain.

I hate to break it to some of you, but nursing isn't rocket science; it's changing diapers,giving shots,giving enemas, taking vitals, etc. Critical thinking isn't something new, you've been doing it your entire life. If you can pass your prerequisite classes with flying colors, I don't see that nursing should be any more difficult if the material is taught to the students and they are given ample time to study, and then they are only tested on what they have been taught.

I think there are a lot of bad nursing schools out there that need to be shut down.

This weeding out process doesn't necessarily weed out the intellectually bankrupt, it weeds out the people who will not put up with the stupidity they are being dealt by the nursing schools, such as: teachers not teaching and being tested on material not covered.

[AZO49008]

Here's how I see it. In addition to studying hard and knowing your stuff, it's also all about jumping through the hoops. Some of those hoops seem ridiculous and pointless. I found that the students were "singled out" or "picked on" were the ones who didn't just shut the heck up and jump through the stupid hoops and be done with it. They either wanted to argue about the validity of the hoops or sidestep them all together.

[jgrossberg]

Anyone ever dismissed from a nursing school after "failing" an assessment skills competency because of getting one blood pressure "wrong"?

Just curious. I am a nurse, and it may be about to happen to my (very competent, already has one degree) daughter.

Jan from Colorado Springs CO

[donsterRN, ASN, BSN]

Anyone ever dismissed from a nursing school after "failing" an assessment skills competency because of getting one blood pressure "wrong"?

Just curious. I am a nurse, and it may be about to happen to my (very competent, already has one degree) daughter.

Jan from Colorado Springs CO

That seems harsh.

When I was in school, our skill competencies had little room for error, but we were allowed to miss BP readings by 4 points. More than that, we had to repeat it. And if we failed a competency outright, we were given two more tries to get it right. After that, the student who couldn't do it was dismissed from the program because they needed to be able to perform the skill in clinical situations. I suppose schools have to do what they have to do, but failing (and dismissing) a student for one wrong competency seems heavy handed to me, especially if she's not allowed to repeat it at least once.

I'm sorry for the situation with your daughter. Does she have any recourse to protest her termination?