We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Feb 12, 2021

Debating demographic qualities that set us all apart such as experienced RN vs Direct Entry applicant vs new grad going straight to NP will always be subject to individual variances that would be tough to quantify. Sure, everyone has anecdotal evidence of this and that but there is no way anyone is going to accept personal anecdotes as fact. Any field isn't perfect and there is always room for improvement. For NP education to continue to remain viable to serve a need for competent healthcare providers there is so much that can be done that isn't happening currenty.

This has been beaten to death and it's frankly tiring to even read comments not just in this thread but in all the other threads like it. Standardization has been the most obvious limitation of NP education as it is now. Entry requirements are all over the place. Pre-requisites aren't even required (for a nurse with 20 years bedside experience, you would think anatomy and physiology should be repeated prior to entrance!). Clinical practica aren't even arranged by even some of the brick and mortar programs. Faculty teaching NP students in some schools aren't even in active clinical practice...I mean, I can keep going on. Many of our NP leadership in education have not been paying attention.

MentalKlarity, BSN, NP · Feb 12, 2021

2 hours ago, juan de la cruz said:

Debating demographic qualities that set us all apart such as experienced RN vs Direct Entry applicant vs new grad going straight to NP will always be subject to individual variances that would be tough to quantify. Sure, everyone has anecdotal evidence of this and that but there is no way anyone is going to accept personal anecdotes as fact. Any field isn't perfect and there is always room for improvement. For NP education to continue to remain viable to serve a need for competent healthcare providers there is so much that can be done that isn't happening currenty.

This has been beaten to death and it's frankly tiring to even read comments not just in this thread but in all the other threads like it. Standardization has been the most obvious limitation of NP education as it is now. Entry requirements are all over the place. Pre-requisites aren't even required (for a nurse with 20 years bedside experience, you would think anatomy and physiology should be repeated prior to entrance!). Clinical practica aren't even arranged by even some of the brick and mortar programs. Faculty teaching NP students in some schools aren't even in active clinical practice...I mean, I can keep going on. Many of our NP leadership in education have not been paying attention.

Yes, it's unfortunate but it seems those in charge have decided that simply graduating as many NPs as possible regardless of quality is the best path forward. It's shortsighted and ignorant and I wish we could fire everyone in charge of nursing accreditation and replace them with the people who enforce the CRNA standards. They are allowing degree mills to operate with no oversight, and don't seem to care one bit if a student graduates entirely online with self-guided modules having never touched a patient. I don't know what they're thinking but they are certainly not protecting our profession at all.

RN/WI, ADN, BSN, MSN, RN, APRN · Feb 12, 2021

What schools are defined as Diploma mills ?

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Feb 13, 2021

27 minutes ago, RN/WI said:

What schools are defined as Diploma mills ?

The term is actually not appropriately used in this thread. Traditionally, diploma mills are entities that promise a degree or diploma for a fee that is illegitimate or fake, hence, useless. Graduates of such programs are illegally claiming a credential that is not recognized by law. There is no such NP Program in the US that meets that criteria because the rules of national certification is that NP's must graduate from a CCNE accredited program which a vast majority of programs do have accreditation.

MentalKlarity, BSN, NP · Feb 13, 2021

48 minutes ago, RN/WI said:

What schools are defined as Diploma mills ?

In this context, usually for-profit programs that are in service to company shareholders moreso than students and only do the bare minimum to meet accreditation, if that. They often have "monthly" start dates, advertise "Get your degree in 13 months!!", and will take anyone with a pulse. They often require no standardized testing, require no interview, and are happy to take anyone as long as they can get that sweet, sweet federal financial aid directly into the pockets of their stockholders.

PsychNurse24, BSN, RN · Feb 13, 2021

30 minutes ago, juan de la cruz said:

The term is actually not appropriately used in this thread. Traditionally, diploma mills are entities that promise a degree or diploma for a fee that is illegitimate or fake, hence, useless. Graduates of such programs are illegally claiming a credential that is not recognized by law. There is no such NP Program in the US that meets that criteria because the rules of national certification is that NP's must graduate from a CCNE accredited program which a vast majority of programs do have accreditation.

Thank you!

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 13, 2021

7 hours ago, juan de la cruz said:

Debating demographic qualities that set us all apart such as experienced RN vs Direct Entry applicant vs new grad going straight to NP will always be subject to individual variances that would be tough to quantify. Sure, everyone has anecdotal evidence of this and that but there is no way anyone is going to accept personal anecdotes as fact. Any field isn't perfect and there is always room for improvement. For NP education to continue to remain viable to serve a need for competent healthcare providers there is so much that can be done that isn't happening currenty.

This has been beaten to death and it's frankly tiring to even read comments not just in this thread but in all the other threads like it. Standardization has been the most obvious limitation of NP education as it is now. Entry requirements are all over the place. Pre-requisites aren't even required (for a nurse with 20 years bedside experience, you would think anatomy and physiology should be repeated prior to entrance!). Clinical practica aren't even arranged by even some of the brick and mortar programs. Faculty teaching NP students in some schools aren't even in active clinical practice...I mean, I can keep going on. Many of our NP leadership in education have not been paying attention.

Coursework that ends in a degree shouldn't have to be repeated before advancing education. Nurses use what they learned in A/P every day in practice, and through continuing education one can easily keep abreast of the changes that occur which at this point are relatively few. I've had to take A/P three times in my life so far, once in high school, LPN school, and then in college, I had so much A/P over the years that when I finally took it in college I got a perfect score on all exams, labs, and projects with minimal studying.

I realize nurses with 20+ years exp are seen as only capable of pushing pills and wiping butts, but they do have more brains than that.

RN/WI, ADN, BSN, MSN, RN, APRN · Feb 13, 2021

2 hours ago, juan de la cruz said:

2 hours ago, RN/WI said:

What schools are defined as Diploma mills ?

The term is actually not appropriately used in this thread. Traditionally, diploma mills are entities that promise a degree or diploma for a fee that is illegitimate or fake, hence, useless. Graduates of such programs are illegally claiming a credential that is not recognized by law. There is no such NP Program in the US that meets that criteria because the rules of national certification is that NP's must graduate from a CCNE accredited program which a vast majority of programs do have accreditation

Exactly! I did not understand the initial statement. Thanks for the clarification.

PsychNurse24, BSN, RN · Feb 13, 2021

55 minutes ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

Coursework that ends in a degree shouldn't have to be repeated before advancing education. Nurses use what they learned in A/P every day in practice, and through continuing education one can easily keep abreast of the changes that occur which at this point are relatively few. I've had to take A/P three times in my life so far, once in high school, LPN school, and then in college, I had so much A/P over the years that when I finally took it in college I got a perfect score on all exams, labs, and projects with minimal studying.

I realize nurses with 20+ years exp are seen as only capable of pushing pills and wiping butts, but they do have more brains than that.

Well said (written)!

JKL33 · Feb 13, 2021

2 hours ago, juan de la cruz said:

The term is actually not appropriately used in this thread. Traditionally, diploma mills are entities that promise a degree or diploma for a fee that is illegitimate or fake, hence, useless. Graduates of such programs are illegally claiming a credential that is not recognized by law. There is no such NP Program in the US that meets that criteria because the rules of national certification is that NP's must graduate from a CCNE accredited program which a vast majority of programs do have accreditation.

Interesting.

Not that I use the term frequently ?, but if I did it would not be so literally/strictly defined. I think common usage of the term is along the lines of a pill mill or a puppy mill, where something (degrees, prescriptions or puppies) are produced or sold in volumes large enough to raise suspicions about the ethics or legality of the situation.

(Edited for clarity)

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Feb 13, 2021

1 hour ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

Coursework that ends in a degree shouldn't have to be repeated before advancing education. Nurses use what they learned in A/P every day in practice, and through continuing education one can easily keep abreast of the changes that occur which at this point are relatively few. I've had to take A/P three times in my life so far, once in high school, LPN school, and then in college, I had so much A/P over the years that when I finally took it in college I got a perfect score on all exams, labs, and projects with minimal studying.

I would gladly repeat a course that would help me understand advanced concepts including anatomy and physiology if I have to especially if it's been too long since I took the course. Nurses commonly practice in a specialized manner so much so that though we all start out with a general nursing education, many branch out where the population and disease focus tends to be specialized (even ICU's have specialized units).

There is so much about basic health sciences that first, wasn't even taught well in nursing school, and second, is necessary to understand the therapeutic basis for treatments and medications we use. You based your response on you having taken the same course over and over again, an experience you have that does not necessarily translate to other individuals. If we are to standardize educational goals, everyone would come in with a clean slate.

PA programs require prerequisite science courses even for those who are nurses. Some Nursing PhD programs require a repeat of graduate statistics if they were taken longer than 5 years. This is just to make sure that concepts long forgotten because we don't necessarily think about it in our practice are refreshed.

1 hour ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

I realize nurses with 20+ years exp are seen as only capable of pushing pills and wiping butts, but they do have more brains than that.

I don't know why you even brought this up. I work with nurses everyday and yeah there is variation in skills and knowledge in any group of nurses in any given hospital. I consider many of the senior nurses as my go to for reliable information and patient assessment but that doesn't apply to every single nurse in the unit with 20+ years experience. Let's be real here, years of experience is no guarantee a nurse is that good.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Feb 13, 2021

10 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

Interesting.

Not that I use the term frequently ?, but if I did it would not be so literally/strictly defined. I think common usage of the term is along the lines of a pill mill or a puppy mill, where something (degrees, prescriptions or puppies) are produced or sold in volumes large enough to raise suspicions about the ethics or legality of the situation.

(Edited for clarity)

Right and the term has been used to denote substandard schools that have predatory practices of recruitment such as the "for profit" programs. The truth is "for profits" are not even that known for handing out diplomas so easily...in most of the complaints on these schools, students are lured into attending their programs by taking loans only to realize that they can't even finish due to program inefficiencies/inadequacies (I.e., lack of clinical placements) and default on those loans.