We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

PsychNurse24, BSN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

15 minutes ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

But that's the point, just the fact that some of these schools are meeting standards show that our standards aren't high enough. I feel that the national nursing organizations that have decreed we have "critical shortages" for RN's and NP's have enabled the loosening of standards for accreditation and licensure.

So I’m having trouble understanding why you believe that meeting standards is not good enough. And how does that mean that standards are not high enough? Why are there all the “Scopes and Standards of Practice” for Nurses, Including for Psychiatric Nurses? We referred to those books extensively during my BSN program and now in my NP Program. I guess that there should be books called “Exceeding the Scope and Standards of Nursing”. Also, show the data that the standards used to be higher for NP programs. I guess you believe all the universities must be in cahoots with the ANCC to lower standards. Sorry, but I think I am being well prepared to pass the board certification to be a PMHNP and that I will be a great practitioner.

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

21 minutes ago, PsychNurse24 said:

So I’m having trouble understanding why you believe that meeting standards is not good enough. And how does that mean that standards are not high enough? Why are there all the “Scopes and Standards of Practice” for Nurses, Including for Psychiatric Nurses? We referred to those books extensively during my BSN program and now in my NP Program. I guess that there should be books called “Exceeding the Scope and Standards of Nursing”. Also, show the data that the standards used to be higher for NP programs. I guess you believe all the universities must be in cahoots with the ANCC to lower standards. Sorry, but I think I am being well prepared to pass the board certification to be a PMHNP and that I will be a great practitioner.

I'm not trying to offend you, and I'm glad you have been pleased with your education and feel well prepared. As I've said in previous posts there's not a doubt that students can be successful regardless of what program they choose.

However, your experience is not universal, many students that I've spoken, that have posted on these forums, as well as others on the web have spoken about the poor quality of their programs. There are employers across the US that are starting to bypass looking at resumes of people who go to certain web based programs. No lectures, no insight or instruction from professors, just given the textbook and told to write a paper for each chapter, self arranged clinicals. All that for 50-100k? That's not a bargain, that's a scam, if all it takes to be an NP is to read a few textbooks and bang out some papers then that's a very troublesome sign.

I don't have data to back up my claims, but go to any for profit online school and look at their "admission requirements" and they all but say that as long as you can sign on the student loan form then congrats you get accepted. Most have a 2.5 GPA req. that's lower than what my ADN required. No RN experience? I've worked with psych NP's that had ICU exp or med-surg exp INSTEAD of psych exp and it was painfully obvious in their diagnosis and treatments they chose for their patients, yes I know that anecdotal but that was my experience.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · Feb 9, 2021

I would like to hear from those who attended these “mills” before I judge on what their curriculums are based on. Few people who graduated from waldens voice up their experiences here or categorize what their curriculums are like. I know my “online ish” program had what’s consider rigorous barriers of entry. They didn’t require a gre if you met an undergrad GPA minimum of 3.0. But they had clinical visits by faculty who expected specific metrics of progression, had online live and recorded lectures, open format live discussions, and provided basic tools to find preceptors. All of our exams were proctored through the entire program and if you didn’t have an 80 exam average regardless of the papers you wrote, you failed the term.

As been answered here and in many other similar topics, it’s school accrediting bodies that need to step up. Not ANCC or AANP. If they decide “write a paper on a chapter” is rigorous enough, then those bodies are where your beef is and not the schools. Most schools will do the bare minimum. Some distance based schools might have foresight to see change and get ahead of the gun like mine did. But many won’t

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

43 minutes ago, djmatte said:

I would like to hear from those who attended these “mills” before I judge on what their curriculums are based on. Few people who graduated from waldens voice up their experiences here or categorize what their curriculums are like. I know my “online ish” program had what’s consider rigorous barriers of entry. They didn’t require a gre if you met an undergrad GPA minimum of 3.0. But they had clinical visits by faculty who expected specific metrics of progression, had online live and recorded lectures, open format live discussions, and provided basic tools to find preceptors. All of our exams were proctored through the entire program and if you didn’t have an 80 exam average regardless of the papers you wrote, you failed the term.

As been answered here and in many other similar topics, it’s school accrediting bodies that need to step up. Not ANCC or AANP. If they decide “write a paper on a chapter” is rigorous enough, then those bodies are where your beef is and not the schools. Most schools will do the bare minimum. Some distance based schools might have foresight to see change and get ahead of the gun like mine did. But many won’t

Just for giggles, I googled "Nurse Practitioner Diploma Mills" and got an ad for Chamberlain and Walden ?. The search did yield opinions and people's various experiences which you can take a gander at, not saying I agree with all the NP bashing some of those stances take but you can see for yourself Nurse Practitioner Diploma Mills

You are right accrediting bodies do need to step up and address this issue since higher education no longer has the integrity to maintain the quality of education they deliver. Yet tuition and the amount of student loans a person has to take out continues to increase for students.

Education like healthcare is seriously flawed when run with a business model.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · Feb 9, 2021

20 minutes ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

Just for giggles, I googled "Nurse Practitioner Diploma Mills" and got an ad for Chamberlain and Walden ?. The search did yield opinions and people's various experiences which you can take a gander at, not saying I agree with all the NP bashing some of those stances take but you can see for yourself Nurse Practitioner Diploma Mills

You are right accrediting bodies do need to step up and address this issue since higher education no longer has the integrity to maintain the quality of education they deliver. Yet tuition and the amount of student loans a person has to take out continues to increase for students.

Education like healthcare is seriously flawed when run with a business model.

Seriously that Google search is a loaded search that pulls a range of anti NP blogs and does nothing to capture the nuts and bolts of why those “schools” classify as degree mills. I’ve seen some here literally suggest anything online that isn’t a typical brick and mortar and or allows you to work while going to school meets their requirements for a mill. I can speak to why frontier isn’t. But would be hard pressed to presume to know anything about other schools. Perhaps some need a little more humility until they themselves have that experience or they hear feedback from someone who actually went to those schools.

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

17 minutes ago, djmatte said:

Seriously that Google search is a loaded search that pulls a range of anti NP blogs and does nothing to capture the nuts and bolts of why those “schools” classify as degree mills. I’ve seen some here literally suggest anything online that isn’t a typical brick and mortar and or allows you to work while going to school meets their requirements for a mill. I can speak to why frontier isn’t. But would be hard pressed to presume to know anything about other schools. Perhaps some need a little more humility until they themselves have that experience or they hear feedback from someone who actually went to those schools.

I already said in previous posts that my opinion was formed in part by collegues I've known that went through different online for profit programs. You were the one that said you had not read of people's negative experiences with NP education, and I also stated that I did search "for giggles" which implies that it wasn't a serious attempt at research.

I'm not presenting a novel argument here, the criticisms that have been brought up regarding the current standards of NP education have been discussed in numerous threads on AN.

Suggesting I need humility is cute, but there's no need to attack me on a personal level just because I have an opinion different from yours.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · Feb 9, 2021

If you inferred my statement of “some” as a personal attack, then that’s on you as it was more an assessment on a broad range of posters. But as a whole I’ve only personally met two who went to a “mill”. One who was a personal colleague who was an exceptional provider. The other I met only in passing. So I have minimal interaction in what these schools do and don’t do. It would be nice to get some more perspective from AN members who went there for input, but they often don’t qualify their individual experiences here. Probably because threads like this commonly put down their educational path on a regular basis.

Neuro Guy NP, DNP, PhD, APRN · Feb 9, 2021

38 minutes ago, djmatte said:

Seriously that Google search is a loaded search that pulls a range of anti NP blogs and does nothing to capture the nuts and bolts of why those “schools” classify as degree mills. I’ve seen some here literally suggest anything online that isn’t a typical brick and mortar and or allows you to work while going to school meets their requirements for a mill. I can speak to why frontier isn’t. But would be hard pressed to presume to know anything about other schools. Perhaps some need a little more humility until they themselves have that experience or they hear feedback from someone who actually went to those schools.

Well I can say from my experience that I taught online for a couple terms at one the programs in question. I wasn't impressed..... That informed a large part of my opinion at least.

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

2 minutes ago, djmatte said:

If you inferred my statement of “some” as a personal attack, then that’s on you as it was more an assessment on a broad range of posters. But as a whole I’ve only personally met two who went to a “mill”. One who was a personal colleague who was an exceptional provider. The other I met only in passing. So I have minimal interaction in what these schools do and don’t do. It would be nice to get some more perspective from AN members who went there for input, but they often don’t qualify their individual experiences here. Probably because threads like this commonly put down their educational path on a regular basis.

Well, I inferred it because you replied to me, so yeah.

I'm not putting down their educational path, as I've stated in my previous posts there are students who will do well and be competent providers regardless of the school they attend.

No to mention providing criticism and voicing valid concerns is not "putting down" someone's educational path. If people are that sensitive maybe they shouldn't be on the internet, period.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · Feb 9, 2021

In all reality, the term is particularly broad and is often used to put down a broad range of clinicians as people criticize the school without good definitions of what makes up a degree mill. Chamberlain for instance has a dedicated section within the AN student section. It is literally endorsed by a forum to the point they have a place for all of those who choose to go there. I've seen MD forums call a prestigious school like Vanderbilt as an NP degree mill while a few I've seen post here would vehemently disagree. By some standards my own school is considered a "mill" by those who know nothing about my school.

Many people like to talk up our own education and like to talk down to those who went to a place we feel for whatever reason don't measure up. But by the standards in practice now, they are all meeting some minimum measurement. Suggesting that those who might feel attacked shouldn't partake is probably the reason they don't clarify their own experience. They see a litany of criticisms from the OP on down where they would never be able to change anyone's mind. IMO, if they passed the same board as I did, they are no better or worse of a NP until their actions show differently. But there's no incentive for real discussion when the first post is "we must demolish..." or other thoughts are "if you're that sensitive...." type of attitudes.

TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN · Feb 9, 2021

12 minutes ago, djmatte said:

In all reality, the term is particularly broad and is often used to put down a broad range of clinicians as people criticize the school without good definitions of what makes up a degree mill. Chamberlain for instance has a dedicated section within the AN student section. It is literally endorsed by a forum to the point they have a place for all of those who choose to go there. I've seen MD forums call a prestigious school like Vanderbilt as an NP degree mill while a few I've seen post here would vehemently disagree. By some standards my own school is considered a "mill" by those who know nothing about my school.

Many people like to talk up our own education and like to talk down to those who went to a place we feel for whatever reason don't measure up. But by the standards in practice now, they are all meeting some minimum measurement. Suggesting that those who might feel attacked shouldn't partake is probably the reason they don't clarify their own experience. They see a litany of criticisms from the OP on down where they would never be able to change anyone's mind. IMO, if they passed the same board as I did, they are no better or worse of a NP until their actions show differently. But there's no incentive for real discussion when the first post is "we must demolish..." or other thoughts are "if you're that sensitive...." type of attitudes.

I think defining "diploma mill" is actually a good idea, because you're right, everyone's definition seems to be different. Some think that an online format makes a school a diploma mill, but I think there's studies to refute that. To me a diploma mill 1. Lacks sufficient barriers to entry, 2. Lacks meaningful instruction or rigor, 3. Lacks resources for clinical placement, 4. Expensive tuition compared B/M competitors. Any other suggestions as to what constitutes a diploma mill?

Typically when "if you're that sensitive" attitude is displayed it's because a poster is perpetually offended in every reply they post.

ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP · Feb 9, 2021

Interesting comments. I wonder how much my program would be raked through the coals here. There are two sections: online and brick-and-mortar. I chose online so I could work to afford the school, but it is identical to the in-class counterpart. I have online classes that are synchronous, meaning they are taught in real-time and I get a chance to interact with my classmates and professor. My school finds my preceptors for me (though it may mean going a few hours away from home to get to my clinical site). I get in-depth lectures that I can play as many times as I want in order to take notes and fully immerse myself in the material. Plus, I will have on-site campus visits to practice procedural skills.

I think working actually enhances my understanding of the knowledge that I am gaining in the classroom as I can apply it to real-life situations I have seen in practice as a floor nurse.

I think online gets a bad rep here; people need to remember that online schools are not created equal. I work with someone who is going to a brand new FNP school who doesn't get any lectures and has complained about the lack of instruction. She also had to find her own clinical sites. Meanwhile, I do not have to find my own sites (though I can approach a site if I want) and have hours of content that my school provides at my finger tips.