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This happened in a new hospital halfway between london and bristol, in about 2004. I had got tired of all the agency work in A&E in London, so signed up for a 3 month contract in a general surgical ward working nights.
I had some bad experiences straight away - as in no handover on my first shift, and I confronted the hardened battle axe of a nurse who was finishing the day shift as she was about to leave the ward. She told me that all the patients were fine - and left.
But that's another story, but suffice to say, I stuck with the place for two months, and things only got worse, and I had to quit. But one incident happened, and I felt that I was the only one in the hospital who could see this problem, and to this day I still think I'm in the right, although I do have some doubt now. So here's the scenario.
Mrs Smith had cellulitis of her left calf (it wasn't her real diagnosis as I can't remember, but I do remember she did not have a particularly serious problem). Anyway, I'd been giving her the evening IV AB,s and got to know her well as she loved to chat. She was one of the more lively patients in her 6 bedded bay.
Anyway, I turn up to work (I think about 2000hrs) and I am told by the charge nurse that Mrs Smith is 'unconscious.'
I'm thinking, okay, what happened, where is she now? I'm then told she is still in the bay at the end of the ward, unconscious. I can't believe my ears. An unconscious patient, regardless of cause = unprotected airway. It all goes back to ABC. I tell the charge nurse that this can't be right, but he then explains that she's had a CT, been seen by her consultant, been seen by the medical team, and been seen by the neurological team, and they cannot find a cause, and all scans are normal.
I am told that there is nothing to do, but to leave her there.
You may not believe this, but neither could I.
I explain that this is crazy. We have an otherwise healthy 60yr old woman with an unprotected airway, at the end of the ward. The charge nurse gets a bit angry, and tells me if I'm that worried, I can spend the night at her bedside, but that's up to me, and I still have 11 other patients for the night. All I wanted was for her to be somewhere where she could be observed, as a simple aspiration and she's gone. An otherwise healthy woman could be dead in a matter of minutes. She's on no kind of monitoring, absolutely nothing.
What should I do? I contemplated walking out. I contemplated complaining to the duty nurse supervisor, but found out she was ok with this as well. I stayed for the shift.
I managed to go past her room about every 15-20 minutes - pathetic really, but the best I could manage, and every time i tried to wake her.
At about 0300hrs I tried waking her, and she woke up, asked what time it was, and seemed completely fine.
You probably won't believe this, but this is exactly how it happened. I've never seen someone suddenly go unconscious for no apparent reason, and suddenly wake up hours later absolutely fine.
I called the house surgeon and told him about her, and he was like 'why did you bother calling me?' and I told him that it was a bloody miracle she was still alive, and that he might want to assess her while she's still conscious, because who knows what could happen. He agreed to come down and do an assessment.
Anyway, I worked there a little bit longer before an even worse event forced me to quit, but I'm curious what you think. Should she have been in a monitored unit? Should she even have been intubated? Was I over reacting?
I always felt I was in the right on this one, but it seems I was the only one in the hospital who felt that way.
I did read you post (now multiple times), it never said she was unconscious before 2000 but now all of a sudden she is.Well obviously the doctors & nurses you worked with disagreed with you too. That was made clear when you called the surgeon & he wanted to know why you were bothering him. Also all of us don't agree with you, you're on an island on your own. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe she was sleeping.
My husband works in the oil field & can go for 24-36 hours straight. When he finally comes home he is exhausted & passes out. He can sleep for hours! Plus he sleeps like a rock. Should I intubate him because he's unconscious for hours to protect his airway? By the way, you did bring up intubation, check your first couple comments. What if she had a stressful life & her body just gave out? There is no medical reason to protect her airway, if there was I'm sure a doctor would have told you to.
You made this post asked if you were right, wrong or crazy. Now that everyone is disagreeing with you, you are getting upset & saying *we* are wrong. Why did you make this post in the first place & why do you keep making these ridiculous posts?
There is a medical reason to observe her airway. And I did say she'd had tests and been seen by the various teams of doctors - hence it sorta made sense she'd been unconscious for a while. I'm not sure how you missed that Miss detective. I only suggested the whole intubation remark simply to see what people would think. At no stage did I think this ever an option.
Am I the only one the snickered at the U.S. healthcare system being called litigious (and the implication that this leads to more focus in care)? I mean, we are litigious indeed, but can't say I agree that this leads to healthcare facilities watching their P's and Q's.I read the post. Didn't see anything that couldn't have been handled by nursing measures. Worried about ABC's? What nursing measures did you take to correct the problem? Raise the head of the bed, assess lung sounds, get a saturation reading and a whole myriad of things that weren't mentioned could have been done before becoming confrontational with your coworkers. I used to travel nurse and, hmph........that approach with coworkers would have left me up the creek with no paddle. Most places are very helpful to agency and travel nurses but, there is a line you don't cross and once you do..............."DEAD MAN WALKING, DEAD MAN WALKING HERE, DEAD MAN WALKING." Just my assessment but, you did cross that line and that is what lead to you having to "quit" (snickers.....is it called quitting if you're booted out the door?).
It seemed you went straight to the most extreme intervention and nothing else would have made you happy. Don't take this the wrong way, but in every profession, not just nursing, jumping to extremes is a sign of inexperience.
When you hear hooves, think horse, not zebra.
It's funny, but I've ran this story past my colleagues back home in NZ, and they said they would have put her somewhere where she could be observed.
So who is right?
There is a medical reason to observe her airway. And I did say she'd had tests and been seen by the various teams of doctors - hence it sorta made sense she'd been unconscious for a while. I'm not sure how you missed that Miss detective. I only suggested the whole intubation remark simply to see what people would think. At no stage did I think this ever an option.
I didn't miss that the patient had tests, I've said that multiple times in the MULTIPLE posts. I know she had tests done. If you were afraid of aspiration did you put her on her side or like the PP said raise the head of the bed? If she wasn't choking on her salvia why would you need to protect her airway (gag reflex intact)? Or is there more to this than you're letting on?
It seems based on responses that posters know the original poster, as an outsider my question would be was she arousable, an unconscious person is not arousable a sleeping person is. If she was not arousable that is a problem and surely an aspiration risk. If she is breathing normally and her heart is beating normally there is no need for intubation I wouldn't think.
An unconscious patient, regardless of cause = unprotected airway
Do you stop protecting your airway when you sleep? Her CT was WNL. I've been nursing neuro patients for quite some time, with four of my years being in the ICU. People don't stop protecting their airway without cause--stroke, head trauma, sedating medications/street drugs/alcohol, altered LOC from respiratory or metabolic patho or sepsis, etc. You (as far as I've read in this thread) make no mention of any abnormal scans or labs. Rather, you say all tests were WNL.
So what exactly about her airway is unprotected?
Did you note a color or breathing pattern, or low SpO2 that indicate an unprotected airway?
It's funny, but I've ran this story past my colleagues back home in NZ, and they said they would have put her somewhere where she could be observed.
I've never nursed in NZ (I'd love to visit someday though! :) ), nor in the UK... but in my experience, there needs to be a clear, observable, objective, and documented reason to move the pt to a higher level of care. Very very sleepy with no patho on multiple exams is not one of those reasons.
Actually, someone that exhausted would be made worse in the ICU. People can and do become delirious from the constant wakings, alarms, all that jazz. And delirium is organ failure--brain failure.
I've never nursed in NZ (I'd love to visit someday though! :) ), nor in the UK... but in my experience, there needs to be a clear, observable, objective, and documented reason to move the pt to a higher level of care. Very very sleepy with no patho on multiple exams is not one of those reasons.
Actually, someone that exhausted would be made worse in the ICU. People can and do become delirious from the constant wakings, alarms, all that jazz. And delirium is organ failure--brain failure.
That would probably be why (no documented reason) no doctor moved her from where she was to ICU or observation.
OP, you should know as a nurse there needs to be a good, documentable reason for everything! Obviously there wasn't one to protect her airway or move her to observation. So yes, yes you are wrong.
Another fanciful tale from years ago (11 years, in this case) in the kind of detail a writer of popular fiction would most appreciate.
OP, since you asked.....you were wrong. Your view of the situation indicates inexperience and stubbornness, not expertise beyond all others on the healthcare team.
Ready for the next chapter in the Cherry Ames series (oh, wait....nursingaround series....sorry!).
AutumnApple
491 Posts
Am I the only one the snickered at the U.S. healthcare system being called litigious (and the implication that this leads to more focus in care)? I mean, we are litigious indeed, but can't say I agree that this leads to healthcare facilities watching their P's and Q's.
I read the post. Didn't see anything that couldn't have been handled by nursing measures. Worried about ABC's? What nursing measures did you take to correct the problem? Raise the head of the bed, assess lung sounds, get a saturation reading and a whole myriad of things that weren't mentioned could have been done before becoming confrontational with your coworkers. I used to travel nurse and, hmph........that approach with coworkers would have left me up the creek with no paddle. Most places are very helpful to agency and travel nurses but, there is a line you don't cross and once you do..............."DEAD MAN WALKING, DEAD MAN WALKING HERE, DEAD MAN WALKING." Just my assessment but, you did cross that line and that is what lead to you having to "quit" (snickers.....is it called quitting if you're booted out the door?).
It seemed you went straight to the most extreme intervention and nothing else would have made you happy. Don't take this the wrong way, but in every profession, not just nursing, jumping to extremes is a sign of inexperience.
When you hear hooves, think horse, not zebra.