There are loads of discussions on this BB about the fluff in curriculums for Nursing school.
Yet, I repeatedly see posts displaying total ignorance of most basic economic issues and how it affects them. I have friends who are recruiters who get resumes that are a disgrace from people that have a BSN. I have coworkers that have no clue of how financial issues work.
I see repeated posts from new grads and experienced nurses about ignorance of local pay rates - do you not research your job field BEFORE you spent 2-4 years getting a degree or deciding to move across country?
You don't think that your credit rating, or your DUI or your conviction from check is going to follow you? Or that it should affect you.
You think that you can bring your kids to work or to an interview, that since you have kids, that means you get the "preferred" schedule...right out of nursing school
You think that employers can be "guilted" into hiring you, that all it takes is a good storyabout how hard it is to get a job, will trump finances and have the employer pony up the 40-80 grand a year plus training and benies.
Or that a hospital that had the kind consideration to PERMIT you to learn on their campus, despite the strain on their resources (ie. nurses that did not get pay for taking the stress of precepting, and dealt with the liability), should be forced to hire you and perhaps fire/cut hours for those very nurses that sacrificed to help you learn.
Or that the large number of unemployed/uninsured/underinsured are not going to affect our bottom line.
I would like to see Nursing schools incorporate some form of business/basic economics class in Nursing school. Included should be current economic conditions, world economy issues, researching (accurately) salaries, COL of where on intends to practice, filing taxes, getting licensed, WRITING A RESUME AND INTERVIEWING, proper behavior in the workplace. And a week or so of workplace poliics and how to deal with them.
My experience with a variety of nurses up and down the spectrum would contradict your assertion... sure, they can point and click but when it comes to making even the simplest functional template in Word or actually making a functional spreadsheet, most are lost... and they don't even realize it.
Our pharmacist, who came out of an IT career, was speaking with me about some idiosyncracies of our med dispensing system when she suddenly said, "Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that you actually understand how networked computers and databases function."
Yes, I pasted that one into a running file of crimes against the language that I maintain for my own amusement. I can't look at it on days when I'm already depressed, though, because even though they're funny, the items in it make me want to weep after a while....
My experience with a variety of nurses up and down the spectrum would contradict your assertion... sure, they can point and click but when it comes to making even the simplest functional template in Word or actually making a functional spreadsheet, most are lost... and they don't even realize it.
Our pharmacist, who came out of an IT career, was speaking with me about some idiosyncracies of our med dispensing system when she suddenly said, "Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that you actually understand how networked computers and databases function."
Then it's even worse than I thought and I'm way out of the loop and maybe just a bit sheltered....
Yes, I pasted that one into a running file of crimes against the language that I maintain for my own amusement. I can't look at it on days when I'm already depressed, though, because even though they're funny, the items in it make me want to weep after a while....
I understand that completely. I'm an incurable grammar/writing cop.
My mom taught elementary kids during the fiasco that was "whole language" (which she flat-out refused to completely give in to) and we both wonder now if that's where a lot of the problems come from.
(That was back when they were encouraging kids to write without regard to basic grammar or even attempts at spelling anything remotely correct, and they did this without being corrected...essentially what whole language did was take constructed grammar lessons out of elementary education for a few years. I can remember reading in some of my mom's education journals about how WONDERFUL the technique was meant to be - and a few years later, in the same journals, it was reviled as almost evil incarnate and a horrible idea - which it was. I've actually heard younger adults complain about that particular fad in education and how they think it's affected things - constructively criticize, not whine.)
as an interesting side note, at age 5 i started kindergarten during a time in our school system's 'experiment' years , which ran for about 6 years. the curriculum for english was very very phonics heavy, spelling, sounds, that sort of thing.
we did not start grammar until i was in 5th and 6th grade, and even then it was sorely lacking in substance. my early education was mostly focused on reading and spelling, with very little attention given to the writing process.
so i am an excellent reader and speller, i can even write well as far as substance and meaning, but my grammar leaves a lot to be desired imo. i still struggle with commas in sentences sometimes, but i am working on it.
college level english was incredibly helpful.
i believe that some were never exposed to proper grammar, while others are simply too lazy to make an attempt to use it.
I guess it's just hard for me to believe that college grads can be that truly disconnected. My general disinterest in mixing my studies/work and social/private time is really showing here, I think. As a high school drop out and subsequent first generation college grad, I suppose I still harbor a bit of romanticism for institutions of higher learning since for me, (because of what I went through to get there and what it took to get through it) it was Mecca...
Used the computer at the public library to request an application for admission because I'd never even owned a computer at that point...When I got the call telling me I'd been accepted, I went door to door for the Census Bureau at 19 to save enough money to buy a Greyhound ticket, packed up two bags and spent three days on the bus getting there...Worked in coffee shops, on campus in the music department, worked desktop support, took on two internships in the first two years in two different cities and for one, lived on Top Ramen and walked 6 miles to work everyday through Southshore Chicago because I couldn't afford to ride the bus . Every penny that I earned working that didn't go to fund my meager existence went to tuition and I still managed to save up enough with the second internship to spend a month backpacking in Europe.
Man....thinking about those years now is exhausting. I was so much younger then . Well, I felt much younger back then.
All of y'all are right on the mark! We are actually seeing new grads coming to job interviews with their MOM! Srsly.
I also wish that nurses had a better understanding of position control. It's very annoying to read all the rants about 'mean' managers and recruiters refusing to hire people. The number of jobs is not determined by the hiring manager, it is established through the budgeting process. Nurses can only be hired into approved vacant positions - and those positions are directly tied to the average patient census. When the census decreases, positions have to be eliminated so the organization does not go belly-up.
I don't think that the lack of financial common sense is limited to nursing, but I'm amazed by the number of nurses who do not even participate in 'matched' retirement contributions - whereby your employer gives you money with no strings attached. Hard to believe that so many people are leaving money on the table. And I'm old, so don't even get me started on everyone that paints themselves into a corner with enormous student loan debt. They must not realize that (for everyone except medical students) the loan balance is factored in to their debt-to-income ratio on credit scores - and low credit scores affect all financial transactions.
I don't necessarily disagree with this post, but I feel the need to address the comment about student loans. Many students, nursing or otherwise, don't have an option.
My personal experience is that of a displaced GM worker making a very good wage, and having to start a second career out of the blue. I already had a mortgage, a child, and no husband to support me while I figured out how to support myself. It wasn't as if I could go back home and expect my parents to take care of my living expenses while I went to school, so I had to borrow money to do it.
I paid very little for actual tuition because I qualified for grants and scholarships, but I still needed to pay for living expenses. This all added up to a pretty penny; much, much more than the average student debt upon graduation from college.
The alternative, however, was to lose everything that I had, then try to scrape by on a $10/hr job because I had only a high school diploma at that point.
Did I paint myself into a corner with student loans? I don't see it that way. I see it as the price I had to pay to have a career that came close to replacing my other income.
As for debt ratios and credit scores, yes, they are affected. But maybe not as much as you think. I have excellent credit. And even though my debt ratio is high, I still have just qualified to buy a new home with a credit score high enough to get the best interest rate offered. So it's not impossible to overcome these obstacles.
Although I'm not a huge Suze Orman fan, I do agree with her that student loans are an investment in ones future. One just have to factor those payments into ones budget like any other payments in order to live within ones means. This is very doable on a nurses salary, especially since most new grads will not have the extremely high debt that I have.
I understand that completely. I'm an incurable grammar/writing cop.
My mom taught elementary kids during the fiasco that was "whole language" (which she flat-out refused to completely give in to) and we both wonder now if that's where a lot of the problems come from.
(That was back when they were encouraging kids to write without regard to basic grammar or even attempts at spelling anything remotely correct, and they did this without being corrected...essentially what whole language did was take constructed grammar lessons out of elementary education for a few years. I can remember reading in some of my mom's education journals about how WONDERFUL the technique was meant to be - and a few years later, in the same journals, it was reviled as almost evil incarnate and a horrible idea - which it was. I've actually heard younger adults complain about that particular fad in education and how they think it's affected things - constructively criticize, not whine.)
I completely sympathize! Both my parents were educators for 30 years each, and both tell horror stories of whole language-impacted students. I had to force myself to stop policing everyone's grammar, because it depressed me and infuriated those I was crass enough to correct. I may not be much wiser than I was at 15, but I have learned a few important lessons along the way....
@Junebugfairy, the teach-phonics-and-ONLY-phonics stuff was awful too, although I think that was a bit more variable in its impact depending on the district. I actually picked up a lot of my grammatical knowledge from reading way, WAY too much of the time.
We learned by rote and memorization, as did most of the thirtyish-to-fifty year olds, I think.
And I can acknowledge that some folks will always struggle with grammar because that's what they struggle with, and some folks will always struggle with spelling because that's what does it for them. For me, it's some math - not consistently, but I'm VERY VERY visual and even though I'm pretty dam*ed smart, occasionally I can't get my head around a very simple concept (and I took a year of calculus - go figure - and a year of organic chem and passed both with flying colors!).
We all have stuff we're just not good at. And that's fine. But it's not an ENTIRE SECTOR of the population that's "just not good at it". :)
As for debt ratios and credit scores, yes, they are affected. But maybe not as much as you think. I have excellent credit. And even though my debt ratio is high, I still have just qualified to buy a new home with a credit score high enough to get the best interest rate offered. So it's not impossible to overcome these obstacles.
Although I'm not a huge Suze Orman fan, I do agree with her that student loans are an investment in ones future. One just have to factor those payments into ones budget like any other payments in order to live within ones means. This is very doable on a nurses salary, especially since most new grads will not have the extremely high debt that I have.
Student loan debt IS factored in, but it apparently carries a different weight with the lender than just other unsecured credit. I qualified for a six-figure conventional (I stress CONVENTIONAL!!) mortgage on my own income and solely in my name (which was a heck of a lot less than what I make now) with NINE student loans on my bureau and a $330 a month payment on them and a debt-to-income I can't talk about in polite company as a result. (In short - husband had the money but no credit and no social because he was a Brit with no green card. I had the credit and the social but no money. Perfect pair, really, when you think about it.) The mortgage officer told me that (1) because I had a college degree, they knew I'd put the money to use, and (2) all the loans were paid current for about eleven years at that point (I'd deferred them when I was active duty). She said that they're viewed differently than having nine credit cards paid the same way with no current outstanding balance on them.
They show a bit more than fiscal responsibility. Plus they're some of the lowest interest loans you'll ever get (most of the time). She said that, like a house, they're a "debt with a purpose" - even more so than a car.
So student loans are a great investment. Since not only your payment record but the SOURCE of the loan is scored (for example, a bank loan scores higher than a finance company because a finance company will typically take on more high risk credit than a bank), they can actually raise your score because the source may boost the numbers.
I agree with you completely. In my case, without the student loans, the mortgage wouldn't have been possible because I couldn't have gotten a job making enough to pay it without the degree the loans bought. :) And banks know this. (Or at least they did!)
Student loan debt IS factored in, but it apparently carries a different weight with the lender than just other unsecured credit. I qualified for a six-figure conventional (I stress CONVENTIONAL!!) mortgage on my own income and solely in my name (which was a heck of a lot less than what I make now) with NINE student loans on my bureau and a $330 a month payment on them and a debt-to-income I can't talk about in polite company as a result. (In short - husband had the money but no credit and no social because he was a Brit with no green card. I had the credit and the social but no money. Perfect pair, really, when you think about it.) The mortgage officer told me that (1) because I had a college degree, they knew I'd put the money to use, and (2) all the loans were paid current for about eleven years at that point (I'd deferred them when I was active duty). She said that they're viewed differently than having nine credit cards paid the same way with no current outstanding balance on them.
They show a bit more than fiscal responsibility. Plus they're some of the lowest interest loans you'll ever get (most of the time). She said that, like a house, they're a "debt with a purpose" - even more so than a car.
So student loans are a great investment. Since not only your payment record but the SOURCE of the loan is scored (for example, a bank loan scores higher than a finance company because a finance company will typically take on more high risk credit than a bank), they can actually raise your score because the source may boost the numbers.
I agree with you completely. In my case, without the student loans, the mortgage wouldn't have been possible because I couldn't have gotten a job making enough to pay it without the degree the loans bought. :) And banks know this. (Or at least they did!)
Exactly what I meant about the statement in bold. :)
I know that lending institutions factor in student loan payments when deciding whether or not to lend for a mortgage. What I meant is that individuals will need to factor those payments into their budgets. My point in saying that, is that it means that they may have to buy a smaller home or less expensive car, but they will still have a career and potential income that they otherwise wouldn't have had.
BTW...my student loan payments total almost $800/month.
This conversation is really ironic because today, as I was returning from my AP II final, I heard two young women on the subway discussing their plans to transfer to a University. And I quote, "What we be? We be freshmans? How much they gon give us they gon pay for all our loans well I gotta get me some stuff like that with that money they be givin us" she points to someone reading a kindle..."why I be payin all this if they gon pay if the loan money gon pay for us"...I can't give you exact quotes, but I'm telling you, it was this BAD. It gets worse: SHE WENT ON TO MENTION SHE WANTED TO MAJOR IN NURSING! I'm afraid, very afraid.
In terms of grammar education, in eighth grade I had a teacher named Ms. Connon who had a portion of the class devoted to "Connon's Comas". She made us fill in commas on 50 pages of Shakespeare. Try figuring out where commas belong in Olde English!!! ;-)
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. Every penny that I earned working that didn't go to fund my meager existence went to tuition and I still managed to save up enough with the second internship to spend a month backpacking in Europe. 
Music in My Heart
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Our pharmacist, who came out of an IT career, was speaking with me about some idiosyncracies of our med dispensing system when she suddenly said, "Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that you actually understand how networked computers and databases function."